Would you buy a high end (10k) raw card?

[Johnny630]

PSA and SGC are loving this post, Cha-Ching Money Making/Printing Machines!! Love it!

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA and SGC are loving this post, Cha-Ching Money Making/Printing Machines!! Love it!

Indeed +1.

OP's question is loaded. This forum, WW2 and older, is about nothing but graded cards and investments. This forum is the internet's country club for high-end, big money, graded card investors.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Indeed +1.

OP's question is loaded. This forum, WW2 and older, is about nothing but graded cards and investments. This forum is the internet's country club for high-end, big money, graded card investors.

Many on here have been on here for a long time...before our cards were considered oceanfront real estate. And most here have more knowledge than the majority of authenticators.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And most here have more knowledge than the majority of authenticators.

Bingo!

[Johnny630]

The number one reason, there are others but this is the number 1 reason people send to PSA and SGC its future resale value. For these cards to be truly Ocean Front Property they have to be easily liquidated, PSA or SGC is the only way to turn your cardboard into cash that could be used for ocean front property or wherever your dreams take you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Bingo!

2x bingo.
Heck, if you were on the original Network54 board at it's beginning, in 2001, you are already 21 yrs into the hobby. And there are many hundreds from that far back.
I don't think of this forum as an investors forum but there are some on it. Spending 10s of thousands of dollars, or hundreds of thousands in some cases, makes a lot of collectors investors. Personally, I consider myself a collector..

Back to topic, I have bought 4-5 cards over 10k and raw. But that was almost before grading...
.
.

[bobbyw8469]

Probably not. I bought a $4,000 Satchell Paige rookie off Ebay around 10 years old. Wound up being fake. Just too much risk with raw cards.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by jingram058

OP's question is loaded. This forum, WW2 and older, is about nothing but graded cards and investments.

I just scanned the entirety of the front page and I don't see any threads with subjects that are even remotely about this. Not sure where this is coming from but this is very far from the truth and reality.

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

When you've been engrossed in a hobby you are passionate about for 40 years you develop expertise. Sadly with the mass slabbing of cards fewer and fewer people...especially those just entering the hobby in the last 20 years will never hold raw cards in their hands. They will never feel the nuances of varying paper/cardboard stock. They put their trust blindly in minimum wage employees at the grading companies. It's comical to me the attitude that all cards of value should be in slabs and if not they can't be real?

This, x10. I consider this forum to be the best gathering spot for the most knowledgeable collectors in our great hobby. I am surprised how many members would pass on a raw high $ card out of fear of it not being authentic. You have the knowledge. You should use it to your advantage. There are always new collections coming out of long storage. If you are one of the lucky ones who get the opportunity to buy these gems, would you pass on these just because they’re not graded?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How about a $10,000 raw vintage unopened pack ?

That's gonna be a no from me, dog. I trust my ability to judge the legitimacy of a card from any of the sets I collect, but I don't know any more than my kids or my parents do about how to tell if a pack has been tampered with.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I just scanned the entirety of the front page and I don't see any threads with subjects that are even remotely about this. Not sure where this is coming from but this is very far from the truth and reality.

Then you are either blind or delusional. Take a good look at the content and the cards, not the thread title or subject.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Would you trust buying a house on your own eyeball examination and decline the services of a professional home inspector?

Would you buy an expensive car and trust your own personal examination and decline reviewing the car fax report?

Would you buy a franchise from someone and just examine the books yourself, or would you hire a professional accountant who does it for a living?

There are people on the board of who are 100% certain of their own powers to avoid fraud. I am not one of them.

Twice in the last decade I have bought counterfeit items from auction houses that are held in the highest esteem on this board. Honest mistakes that were fixed but still mistakes.

This would make some sense, if the graders had a track record better than they have. From thousands of publicly outed trimmed cards to complete fakes to gift grades to being so incompetent they have to shut down their auto grading entirely, they do not have this track record. How is an unknown grader at PSA or SGC better able to evaluate? If one is dropping $10K, and one can’t authenticate items yourself, one shouldn’t be buying that item. That’s a lot of money for someone who doesn’t know that set to spend.

Caveat emptor. One can learn the subject and evaluate themselves, or outsource it to companies with long records of corruption and/or incompetence, frauds, fakes, gift grades and alterations. I don’t see the later as preferable. One should evaluate the card, not rely on what kind of plastic it is in.

[jingram058]

Sigh...I think it's time for me to go on vacation, yet again.

[Lobo Aullando]

A part of this whole thing is analogous to poker, though. Don't play at stakes you're not comfortable at.

Personally, I have zero problem taking a flyer at $100, am spending a few minutes under magnification at $500, and doing a full checkdown over $1000. If my income and/or situation-specific knowledge were greater, then those amounts would obviously go up. Me personally on a $10k card? I can't afford to lose $8k 20% of the time – pick whatever reasonable numbers here, it'll still be enough for a pleasant vacation – so another opinion is beneficial. I can still upgrade with miles if I want.

Maybe I'm just fleshing this out a bit more, but I definitely use my knowledge and have benefited plenty in the $50-200 range.

Originally Posted by horzverti

This, x10. I consider this forum to be the best gathering spot for the most knowledgeable collectors in our great hobby. I am surprised how many members would pass on a raw high $ card out of fear of it not being authentic. You have the knowledge. You should use it to your advantage. There are always new collections coming out of long storage. If you are one of the lucky ones who get the opportunity to buy these gems, would you pass on these just because they’re not graded?

Disclaimer: Any reference to vacations in other posts made in temporal proximity to this post is purely coincidence and has no cash value, is subject to the laws of Delaware, and is not redeemable for prizes.

[refz]

No, I am not in that tier and more than likely never will be… besides if it was a high ticket card it would have to hold its value at altered but authentic at 10k.

[Luke]

I basically feel the same as Ryan H above. I would definitely buy a lower grade rare card if I trusted the seller. For something like a common backed Cobb, I'd still buy it at the right price but it would center more on my level of confidence in what the graders would say. I trust myself on t206s more than any grader at PSA or SGC, but you are still at their mercy if you want to eventually sell the card.

[Exhibitman]

Depends on the seller and the circumstances and what the goal is.

From a reputable dealer I know personally, I would do it remotely. Brian Marcy at Scottsdale, for example, no problem. I know he is good for it. Otherwise, I would need a good look at the card in person.

As for determining whether a card is genuine, as Pete said, after decades of this many of us have developed expertise in our preferred collecting fields. I am probably better at authenticating an Exhibit card than anyone a TPG or AH would hand it to. If I get a walk-in at a show and I can get a good look at the card in hand, I am just fine with it.

Now, if the goal is a specific TPG grade, that I would not do absent a guarantee from a reputable seller.

The most difficult thing is when the item itself is really obscure. That happens in boxing, soccer and other sports more than baseball. I am approached from time to time with boxing card sellers who have uncatalogued cards. In that situation, all you can really do is rely on decent examination tools (black light, microscope) to detect anachronisms and make a judgment call if the card seems to be right for the purported age. Even then, you might never find out what it is. There is going to be a big group of newly-discovered vintage Latin American boxing issues in an upcoming Heritage auction. I've seen a few and they are consistent with the era and origin attributed to them, but it is still a leap of faith to buy those sorts of items.

[Johnny630]

Let's go Back to 1967!!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I just scanned the entirety of the front page and I don't see any threads with subjects that are even remotely about this. Not sure where this is coming from but this is very far from the truth and reality.

+1 to what Bill said. I guess this also makes me "either blind or delusional."

[Popcorn]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

That's gonna be a no from me, dog. I trust my ability to judge the legitimacy of a card from any of the sets I collect, but I don't know any more than my kids or my parents do about how to tell if a pack has been tampered with.

Got super lucky with a unopened 52 topps pack years ago for $5,000. Psa slabbed it but my dumb ass sold it after and it goes for 5x now

[jingram058]

Then try learning how to read and look at the attached photos.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by G1911

This would make some sense, if the graders had a track record better than they have. From thousands of publicly outed trimmed cards to complete fakes to gift grades to being so incompetent they have to shut down their auto grading entirely, they do not have this track record. How is an unknown grader at PSA or SGC better able to evaluate? If one is dropping $10K, and one can’t authenticate items yourself, one shouldn’t be buying that item. That’s a lot of money for someone who doesn’t know that set to spend.

Caveat emptor. One can learn the subject and evaluate themselves, or outsource it to companies with long records of corruption and/or incompetence, frauds, fakes, gift grades and alterations. I don’t see the later as preferable. One should evaluate the card, not rely on what kind of plastic it is in.

I think it’s less about trusting that the grader knows more than you do. I think it’s more about having a well heeled company involved that you can turn to and hopefully get money from in the event something goes wrong. That’s the protection I see in a slab on a big card. Turns out to be fake and they should owe you. Maybe they fine print what they do to try to escape this but my understanding from a different thread is they make you whole.

[Snapolit1]

There are gasbags on this forum who profess near magical powers about their ability to determine fakes with someone unerring eye.
Adam is the rare person who I would trust 100% knows more about his particular area of expertise that prob any person alive. A true authority who I would believe every single time on Exhibits cards over anyone at a TPG.


QUOTE=Exhibitman;2256403]Depends on the seller and the circumstances and what the goal is.

From a reputable dealer I know personally, I would do it remotely. Brian Marcy at Scottsdale, for example, no problem. I know he is good for it. Otherwise, I would need a good look at the card in person.

As for determining whether a card is genuine, as Pete said, after decades of this many of us have developed expertise in our preferred collecting fields. I am probably better at authenticating an Exhibit card than anyone a TPG or AH would hand it to. If I get a walk-in at a show and I can get a good look at the card in hand, I am just fine with it.

Now, if the goal is a specific TPG grade, that I would not do absent a guarantee from a reputable seller.

The most difficult thing is when the item itself is really obscure. That happens in boxing, soccer and other sports more than baseball. I am approached from time to time with boxing card sellers who have uncatalogued cards. In that situation, all you can really do is rely on decent examination tools (black light, microscope) to detect anachronisms and make a judgment call if the card seems to be right for the purported age. Even then, you might never find out what it is. There is going to be a big group of newly-discovered vintage Latin American boxing issues in an upcoming Heritage auction. I've seen a few and they are consistent with the era and origin attributed to them, but it is still a leap of faith to buy those sorts of items.[/QUOTE]