Tinker Evers Chance photo

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobC

One thing I am a bit surprised about is no one mentioning or commenting on my contribution regarding the possible height difference between Tinker and Evers. I thought that LOTG photo clearly shows Tinker as being shorter than Evers, despite them both supposedly being the same height. And then looking at the 1923 picture and using the ears and seats in the background as a reference, that photo appears to show the two of them as being about the same height, which they should be.

Ordinarily I don't think it's necessarily accurate to judge a person's relative height when they are sitting next to each other, because people carry height differently (short or long legs.) But since you are comparing two photos where both guys are sitting next to each other, I think you make a very valid point. On top of all the other points made.

It's true Evers and Tinker were in the same photo when Chance was with the Red Sox, but clearly neither are at all happy about it. Look at their expressions. I know Evers' nickname was "The Crab," but seriously, it looks like he wants to spit. Maybe they did get together in the late 1920s, but Chance was gone by then. I'm thinking perhaps the strongest argument against might be the fact everyone is genuinely smiling in the original photo.

[brass_rat]

I don't have any sleuthing to add, but I've enjoyed reading this constructive, respectful, and informative discussion.

Steve

[RCMcKenzie]

I agree, Steve, a fun discussion. Here's a Tinker photo from RMY and he's wearing what appears to be the same ring in 1913. If my scanner was working, I could enlarge the photos to 2200 dpi like a Columbo episode.

[D. Bergin]

They’re both wearing wedding rings.

Jeez, just look at the ears. Cigar chopper has a smoother interior pattern and lower hanging lobes.

You can’t just put two different sets of ears on the same guy.

You don’t have to prove a guy is somebody else, in order to prove he’s not the right guy. This isn’t a Mr. Potato Head doll. If one piece doesn’t fit…you must acquit……………..that it’s not him.

[RCMcKenzie]

Dave, I hear ya, and see your points. I was not the buyer, so I don't need to change my mind. You guys could change my mind, if you explained who it is, like, "Robert, that's ol' Larry McMurtry, Heine Zimmerman's brother-in-law, why he was quite the card sharp and stockbroker in his day, and made a pile o' money for the Evers and Chance families. Here's his photo."


I'd like to see a poll, to see what the silent majority thinks. Are Al's photo expert and me the only people that think it's Tinker?

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Jobu

What if the photo shows Evers, Chance, and someone who looks like but is not Tinker? Below is the famous Paul Thompson Tinker photo, the fella in question, and on the right an older Tinker from a photo in the HOF's collection:

Attachment 523508

I don't think that is Tinker - lots of the facial features look different to me and they don't appear to have the same teeth.

If true, this removes all of the Tinker questions from the equation. And it seems possible that there is some symbolism going on in the photo - if Chance is handing the ball to Evers, this could well be when managerial duties were passed between the two, which would then place this most likely in a Chicago nightclub with the guy in the middle perhaps being the club owner or working for the team.

What this does not resolve is the dating of the stamp proposed by Bob. I can add to that some nice work by Jim Chapman who has a NY stamp study:

https://chapmandeadballcollection.co...tamp-primer-2/

I checked the 1924 San Francisco phonebook - there is no listing for International News Service but there is one for the International News Service, which was at 632 Mission St. - not too far away from the Call Building.

Looking around for information on the New Call Building, I found this:

https://sfpl.org/locations/main-libr...isco-news-call

Specifically, "The combined gift of the morgues from the San Francisco News and Hearst’s San Francisco Call-Bulletin was an estimated 2 million photographs. The San Francisco News-Call Bulletin Photo Morgue represents the working files created and used by the newspapers’ staff between the 1920s and September 1965."

This doesn't clear up why International Film Service would've been typed onto the back of this photo in 1924 - but a typing error is possible, something less likely had this been a stamp - but it does show a Hearst photo archive working out of the building typed on the back of the photo in the 1920s and beyond, so maybe we can't rule out 1924.

Lots of guesses, that's for sure.

Here are some pictures of Tinker using an aging App.

[brianp-beme]

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

[bigfanNY]

Evers S81 silk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

One thing I have noticed that old-time players really seemed to age during their career, compared to modern day players. I have always figured that one of the factors would be that they played day games their entire careers, thus leaving them exposed to the ravages of the sun. I wonder if that aging app would take into account such a factor?

Brian

That would only matter if modern players stayed indoors during the day. Players don't age only while they are playing baseball.

[Shankweather]

I got a reply from Al about the photo!

“OKAY. So the good news is that we’ve found some further info about your photo.

The bad news is that it’s not Joe Tinker.

In Donald Honig’s book The Chicago Cubs: An Illustrated History, we discovered the same photo. The guy in the center is race car driver Barney Oldfield - Oldfield, while very important in his own field, is obviously not Joe Tinker. Oldfield, oddly enough, is pictured WITH Tinker in the 1912 Case Automobiles postcard - we’ve sold a few of those over the years, here’s an example: https://bid.loveofthegameauctions.co...ce?itemid=9051 A quick image search of Oldfield confirms it.

Our Inventory Manager Andrew Aronstein gets the nod for finding the photo.

Of course we also get two demerits for not picking this up, as this is the kind of thing we take pretty seriously. I want you to be able to feel confident in your bids when you’re bidding with LOTG. We take great pride in the information in our descriptions, and we understand the responsibility that comes with running auctions, not just because we want our descriptions to be accurate for the bidders’ sake, but because once it’s up there on the internet, it becomes part of the next guy’s research. We work pretty hard to get it right, but I hope you can appreciate that nobody gets it right 100% of the time.

We’ll also be passing this info along to our authenticator to help with his own research library.

I’m attaching a copy of the page in Honig’s book where we found the image. We will be issuing you a check for a full refund on your purchase, but I want you to keep the photo - it’s pretty cool, and an interesting piece of history in and of itself. We’ll also be sure to update our description so that it’s properly identified for when people stumble onto it.

We cut checks every other week, so I’d appreciate if you’d give us a little time to pay you back.

Thanks so much for bringing this to your attention, and I apologize for the lack of accuracy.”

No surprise he handled it this way. The postcard he mentioned with Tinker and Oldfield is actually already in my collection, so that’s fun. I don’t think they should be judged on this miss since it was an incredibly easy mistake to make

[BobC]

Stephen,

Not surprised by Al's actions, he will always do the right thing and take care of you. And am glad to see that a few of us were pretty good at figuring out it wasn't Tinker in that photo, after all. LOL Nice to know we weren't completely ridiculous in our thinking.

Now even though that isn't a picture of the famous double play trio, it still is a great photo with some well known HOFers, and a famous race car driver. Plus the fact that there is a publication of it in a known book adds to the potential desirability as well. This picture should still be worth a few bucks. In fact you never know, now that you may be throwing racing collectors in the mix as well, it could still be worth as much as the winning bid, or maybe even more. I know we have some race card collectors on the forum as well. Might be worth checking in with them to see if there is any additional value from their side. Who knows, you may just be better off to tell Al to forget the refund, and keep the picture.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobC

Stephen,

Not surprised by Al's actions, he will always do the right thing and take care of you. And am glad to see that a few of us were pretty good at figuring out it wasn't Tinker in that photo, after all. LOL Nice to know we weren't completely ridiculous in our thinking.

Now even though that isn't a picture of the famous double play trio, it still is a great photo with some well known HOFers, and a famous race car driver. Plus the fact that there is a publication of it in a known book adds to the potential desirability as well. This picture should still be worth a few bucks. In fact you never know, now that you may be throwing racing collectors in the mix as well, it could still be worth as much as the winning bid, or maybe even more. I know we have some race card collectors on the forum as well. Might be worth checking in with them to see if there is any additional value from their side. Who knows, you may just be better off to tell Al to forget the refund, and keep the picture.

Looks like Al’s giving him a refund and the photo.

[Jobu]

Kudos to LOTG - and a nice find by Andrew A.

I am also glad to see that the bomb I lobbed at this photo wasn't erroneous.

Google tells me that Chance and Oldfield were good friends, with Oldfield even being a pallbearer at Chance's funeral. I wasn't able to find the date/location/reason for this photo.

[brianp-beme]

Here is a photo of Barney Oldfield from 1920. Looks like that side of his mouth was used exclusively for clamping down on cigars...many of the photos I found of him picture him doing just that.

Brian

[BobC]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Looks like Al’s giving him a refund and the photo.

WOW! That's Al for you. Great guy, no one will ever treat you any better!

[D. Bergin]

Still a damn nice photo, and probably one of the most interesting shots I’ve seen of Oldfield, outside of an automobile.

[dealme]

Oldfield turned the first 100 mph lap at Indy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RCMcKenzie]

Great research, gang. I'd say that's pretty convincing. Here's a T36 I have of Oldfield. I wonder if he was even more famous than Tinker at the time.

[Casey2296]

Al’s answer doesn’t surprise me, that guy has more integrity in his big toe than some of these other AH’s do in their entire body. Just remember stuff like this when you’re considering an AH to consign to.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Al’s answer doesn’t surprise me, that guy has more integrity in his big toe than some of these other AH’s do in their entire body. Just remember stuff like this when you’re considering an AH to consign to.

most definitely

[GeoPoto]

Walter Johnson would come to be known as "The Big Train," and was so named by Grantland Rice because of his peerless fastball. "Barney" was his other nickname, and that one originated with contemporary auto racer Barney Oldfield, who had reached speeds of 60 miles per hour. Johnson purchased a two-cylinder motor car, his first vehicle. He later told of being stopped for speeding immediately following the purchase, not two blocks from the dealership. Teammates Clyde Milan and Germany Schaefer were along for the ride, and the mischievous Schaefer told the police officer that Johnson was Barney Oldfield in the flesh. When Walter began showing a propensity for striking people out, the nickname "Barney" stuck. Within a year, the battle cry around the league was that when facing Johnson and you saw his arm go up, you swung! (The Washington Senators by Tom Deveaux.)

[EddieP]

Reckon might as well put the postcard in for completeness sake