PWCC Juggernaught

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

Like Jake, I can see that Brent can do no wrong with you either, which is fine. I am not saying Brent is doing wrong but it is his business and there are things he can do, 10,000+ listings a month or not, to make sure the integrity of his listings are not compromised. If people want to protect their consignments or establish false market values by bidding up their consignments, they will find a way to do that with Brent taking all the steps he can to ensure it does not happen. My gut tells me there is not a whole lot of incentive to do so and so far absolutely no consequences should steps not be taken to keep the listings clean. Brent makes money and gets future consignments, eBay makes their cut and collectors get the cards they want so it is a win win even if they are paying far more than the card would have otherwise sold for.

[Pilot172000]

Ok, I have won a big card in two of the last PWCC auctions. I watched it closely, there was a big run with only seconds left and I was able to get in my winning bid at the bell. Both cards I was happy to win and both cards I spent exactly $35 over what I planned to spend. Coincidence?? Most likely, but having bid on dozens of PWCC auctions and they all end exactly the same.

[GregMitch34]

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

[pokerplyr80]

In response to Greg and Peter, I'm not saying he can't do any wrong, or shouldn't be held accountable if something improper or illegal is happening in his auctions. I'm saying he offered to look into any allegation. If either if you suspect something in this auction, or others as you mentioned, why not email him the evidence and see what he has to say?

[botn]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

Problem is that as a bidder you do not know if the people you are bidding against are engaged in spirited bidding or if they are simply protecting their consignments or trying to establish significantly higher market values. Getting an item for less than you are willing to pay is great but that is not always necessary for all purchases to be worthwhile.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

Problem is that as a bidder you do not know if the people you are bidding against are engaged in spirited bidding or if they are simply protecting their consignments or trying to establish significantly higher market values. Getting an item for less than you are willing to pay is great but that is not always necessary for all purchases to be worthwhile.

That is true. I tend to post comments on these type of threads that are pro-pwcc because I feel he is unfairly singled out. This type of activity most likely takes place at every major auction house and in auctions from most if not all ebay sellers who accept consignments. Heritage states they shill their own auctions in their terms and conditions. I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is the case with others. I don't remember many other AH owners discussing shilling and what they try to do to stop it, other than Brent, and I feel he does deserve some credit for that at least.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

And that big bargain to the buyer is the seller getting crushed....sellers never complain about getting crushed..they love to give bargains......lets face its an auction..we are going to have to pay market price and/or what the consignor is willing to really let it go for .....private sales are the way to go if you are looking for deals or buying in bulk, jessie listed his clemente rookie for 7k on net54.....not sure why people are looking for 'deals' on ebay auctions with no or fake reserves...why not buy the card direct and pay up and not worry about losing an auction in the last few secs...

you bid against the coke machine in auto auctions with no 'reserve'...

[Snapolit1]

I get that everyone loves to get a bargain, and I'm not pro-shilling, but what's the real harm if PWCC starts a 52 Mantle worth $175,000 at 99 cents and the consignor or his brother quickly run the card up to $100,000. You didn't think the whole world was asleep and you were going to get the card at $19.99 did you?
OK, attack me . . . .

[GregMitch34]

The problem isn't running it up to $100,000 but to full price of $175,000. That's not bidding, that's starting an auction at $175,000 in reality, not 99 cents.... No one's calling for a large number of "big bargains"--but without even the chance for one many many lose interest. As you say, just wait for the same card to appear as a BIN at the same price, or lower.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That is true. I tend to post comments on these type of threads that are pro-pwcc because I feel he is unfairly singled out. This type of activity most likely takes place at every major auction house and in auctions from most if not all ebay sellers who accept consignments. Heritage states they shill their own auctions in their terms and conditions. I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is the case with others. I don't remember many other AH owners discussing shilling and what they try to do to stop it, other than Brent, and I feel he does deserve some credit for that at least.

Many houses have caught a great deal of flack here over the years when record prices were being achieved over and over. Those raising the issue did so simply based on the final price of the auctions and had nothing else to go on.

There is far more for us to see with auctions conducted on eBay, in spite of ebay putting bidders at a great disadvantage by blocking IDs and removing the ability to search the buying history of a user. PWCC is also not the only eBay consignment seller who has been questioned either.

[pokerplyr80]

I think we're all in agreement it would be nice if all ebay sellers and auction houses would do more to prevent shilling and market manipulation.

As to Jake's comment on the Clemente I'm certainly glad no one took me up on the offer here. Although it appears I may have sold it a day two soon based on the PWCC 7 and the one that's up at Heritage now. Still I can't complain, I was very happy with what I got at the time it sold.

[Mdmtx]

I have no idea one way or another about pwcc, so I am not commenting on their merit. However there seems to be some opinion that he is too big to manage his business. With that mentality the big chain fast food places should not be accountable if they sold horse burgers with ground up glass in them? A person is ALWAYS responsible for that which they represent

Mark Medlin

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

I have no idea one way or another about pwcc, so I am not commenting on their merit. However there seems to be some opinion that he is too big to manage his business. With that mentality the big chain fast food places should not be accountable if they sold horse burgers with ground up glass in them? A person is ALWAYS responsible for that which they represent

Mark Medlin

I agree. The " too many items to follow" argument doesn't fly with me. You are either a conscientious, ethical and diligent business or you're not.

[ZernialFan]

Here's my two cents on PWCC. That was my T206 Southern League sub-set break up that was just sold on PWCC. Most were Old Mill Backs. I did not post the sub-set on Net54 but offered to a couple people and a local guy near me. I even offered to one guy at a small loss to what I had in it. Seems most want you to give it away. Took the risk and gave to PWCC and was pleased at the results. No really big $ cards, but big to me in total. I did not not bid on any of my cards nor did any of my friends. Some sold for more than I had in them and some sold for less. In the end it came out on the plus side enough to cover the fee and leave me with a small profit. It was fun putting together, but time to sell considering I'm in the process of buying a house. If you consider that PWCC's price in total for the sub-set could be close to "Market Price" than the others that it was offered could have had it at a bargain. I can understand shill bidding on 1 card like a Mantle or Cobb, but it is hard to believe Brent can handle a big stable of people shill bidding on all the quantity of cards he handles month to month. Sorry for the long...........but there were bargains on some that I lost $.

Thanks for reading,
Charlie

[Mdmtx]

To further my post above, if you truly want to make certain there are absolutely no improprieties then cost is involved. Additional staff and procedures. These would drive the cost up and result in higher fees and likely less material offered to sell due to the decreased net return. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If you want a stream lined organization that has a low cost structure and gets material out of the woodwork then you will have the risk of being shilled. If you want to remove all risk then cost could increase due to less available items on the market.

I am in no way condoning shilling nor am I condemning it. It is a fact of life. The best way is to set a price you are willing to pay for an item and don't breach that threshold. Period.

If you compare other industries that have setup regulations to avoid graft, it is almost always at a cost. I don't believe this is a problem we can ever solve globally due to personal greed. I am a firm believer the only thing you can do is to manage your own affairs and have the personal wherewithal to stay within your limits.

Mark Medlin

[Leon]

Sounds like you did ok, had fun, and came out fine with PWCC. Thanks for the update. There is no doubt most of ebay auctions are ok (to me) but there is also a lot of nefarious activity going on too. It's sort of a mine field but it's also a good time to be in the hobby!!

Originally Posted by ZernialFan

Here's my two cents on PWCC. That was my T206 Southern League sub-set break up that was just sold on PWCC. Most were Old Mill Backs. I did not post the sub-set on Net54 but offered to a couple people and a local guy near me. I even offered to one guy at a small loss to what I had in it. Seems most want you to give it away. Took the risk and gave to PWCC and was pleased at the results. No really big $ cards, but big to me in total. I did not not bid on any of my cards nor did any of my friends. Some sold for more than I had in them and some sold for less. In the end it came out on the plus side enough to cover the fee and leave me with a small profit. It was fun putting together, but time to sell considering I'm in the process of buying a house. If you consider that PWCC's price in total for the sub-set could be close to "Market Price" than the others that it was offered could have had it at a bargain. I can understand shill bidding on 1 card like a Mantle or Cobb, but it is hard to believe Brent can handle a big stable of people shill bidding on all the quantity of cards he handles month to month. Sorry for the long...........but there were bargains on some that I lost $.

Thanks for reading,
Charlie

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

... The best way is to set a price you are willing to pay for an item and don't breach that threshold. Period. ...

I always audibly sigh when I read this statement on Net54. And I have been sighing a lot in the last year or two.

That price you are willing to pay entered your mind after years of price manipulation caused by shilling. Even if by some miracle you have never been shilled directly, those artificially inflated historical prices have caused every card you have ever bought to be more expensive than it should have been.

Of course, I have no idea what to do about any of it.

[ZernialFan]

Leon.............You pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. I've always been a collector and have bought but never sold on my account on ebay. I have sold through others on ebay, NET54, CU, & B&L to change the collection or downsize. But sometimes as you get older things change and you also wonder if your family will dump the collection for .10 on the dollar. So you down size and keep some of it with instructions, but not so much as to over whelm the family.

Regards to all,
Charlie

[Mdmtx]

Daryl,

I fully understand your point and can appreciate that view. However, since long before any of us in this forum were even a glimmer in our parents eyes, sellers have been manipulating buyers to create additional margin or to mitigate losses. I stand by my statement that if you never pay more than you desire to spend, your disappointment level should be minimal even if the values crash.

If you just think about the sports card market only, without buyer manipulation mantle rookies may still be trading at 900 bucks. Although that is a neat idea, how many people would be scrambling to put first rate material on the market with little to no return.

And I used buyer manipulation on purpose. Shilling is not the only method to create false value. Sales pressure, collusion, hype, misleading statements, inventory control and many more, all contribute to price increases. But when items begin trading at the new levels it is no longer false value. The first buyer is the dupe and he (she) sets the bar. The others are now paying market price.

P.S. I'm not an Econ professor Or play one on tv, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

[Billy5858]

I'm a bit of a rookie here..........my one cent.

PWCC and Probstein seem like the only two sellers on Ebay
that sell high-graded hard to find stuff. Otherwise it's only found
on BINs for crazy A$$ prices. Most are not priced to sell.

I've bought from PWCC several times and was happy with what I got.
But maybe it's because I don't mind paying a little premium on what I'm
looking for. And it's monthly event. Don't have to wait for the twice yearly AH events with their 20% buyer's premium.
I'm not looking to get a great deal or to flip cards. I always look forward to PWCC Auctions and seeing Brent's logo along side a card.
Probstein too.........
Also I dig their hard shelled delivery envelopes. Always thought bubble wrapped cards were not safe enough.
With my last shipment my 3 cards were put in two bubble wrapped envelopes inside of a hard shelled envelope.

Perfect!!

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

To further my post above, if you truly want to make certain there are absolutely no improprieties then cost is involved. Additional staff and procedures. These would drive the cost up and result in higher fees and likely less material offered to sell due to the decreased net return. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If you want a stream lined organization that has a low cost structure and gets material out of the woodwork then you will have the risk of being shilled. If you want to remove all risk then cost could increase due to less available items on the market.

I am in no way condoning shilling nor am I condemning it. It is a fact of life. The best way is to set a price you are willing to pay for an item and don't breach that threshold. Period.

If you compare other industries that have setup regulations to avoid graft, it is almost always at a cost. I don't believe this is a problem we can ever solve globally due to personal greed. I am a firm believer the only thing you can do is to manage your own affairs and have the personal wherewithal to stay within your limits.

Mark Medlin

++ The shilling complaints are getting tiresome. My guess is shilling is rampant on e-bay, and 2x that at AH. Your going to live a long stressful life if you continue to think you were shilled on a winning bid. Update; you were.

For your own mental health, put a snipe in at what you feel is a fair amount, then walk away. Stay away from AH's, especially ones that have multiple endings to their auctions, and certainly the ones that actually TELL you in the fine print you will be shilled. Don't come complaining on this board, just look in the mirror.

And if your using retirement money or your mortgage payment to buy cards, then no-one on this board can help you.

[Yoda]

If nothing else, PWCC will rise or fall based on a continuing or increasing flow of quality consignments and the realized satisfaction of sellers. PWCC's attractions have been well spelled out for buyers and sellers alike, but I think it is safe to say they have emerged as a viable alternative to the AH's in a relatively short time.