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#51
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The point I was going to make is, how can you detect counterfeit bills, but PSA can't detect counterfeit cards? Edited to add: And one last question and I think I will have proven my point. Would you ever deem a bill as "questionable authenticity" or would you categorically say it's either real or it's not? Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 04-28-2016 at 11:37 AM. |
#52
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PSA is not in the business of detecting fakes. They are in the business of authenticating real ones. So far you have called me wrong, mocked my profession and accused me of "not getting it" Try to be a little more civil. I am not calling you wrong, I am telling you I disagree with you and I understand why PSA is doing it that way.
__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#53
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And yes, you were wrong. You inferred that PSA didn't make any money be determining a card as questionable authenticity. They still charge to grade the card whether it is deemed to be real or not. I've been civil with you. Now, you're just being ridiculous. |
#54
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i cant even tell who's on first anymore...
(reminds me of the snl skit w/ will ferrell playing harry carray and comparing nickels to hotdogs, depending on the strength of the yen) . Last edited by begsu1013; 04-28-2016 at 11:57 AM. |
#55
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You are ridiculous to believe that any corporation or company is going to take on added liability to establish something as an outright fake when they don't have to. You are also wrong to assume that people pay money to PSA to tell them if a card is fake. They pay them to tell them that if its real and if its not in the opinion of PSA, they tell them that they won't grade it because they question its authenticity. You don't like the fact that PSA doesn't state in black and white that "Its a fake and you are stupid for sending it to us" You aren't being civil don't kid yourself. We are talking about something so arbitrary as the wording on a sticker that PSA attaches to a fake card. The whole world is filled with "they oughta's". Our opinions of their policy and business model has no effect on their bottom line. I would wager that some attorney somewhere told them to word it exactly that way as to not take on unneeded liability.
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Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#56
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+1
__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#57
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From PSA website
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#58
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#59
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Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#60
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I don't think it is. Thats page five of a thirteen page document with the first five pages being about the card grades and qualifiers.
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Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#61
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So why doesn't PSA say on the flip...counterfeit?
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#62
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i'll tell you why...because it would cause them to lose a little money...that's why.
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#63
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You are correct.
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Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#64
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and in more than just the way you intended, ullman
it would cause them to lose money on the liability side as well, which was the basis of our original argument. everyone's a winner. |
#65
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Chicken dinner.
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Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#66
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Peter, you are wasting your time. PSA can't tell the difference between Karl Malden and Karl Malone, so how could we possibly expect them to tell the difference between a fake Broad Leaf Wagner and a real one?
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218336 Yet people still continue to defend them |
#67
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So ultimately if everyone had the same information...it wouldn't matter...but this is not the case. Whatever...it's done for me. |
#68
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david,
you may be the king of bringing in facts that have nothing to do w the original thread and twisting the heck outta it until the original convo isnt even recognizable anymore...so, now we are on psa/dna, huh? i will take 2 pretzels, please. |
#69
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+1 god forbid they loose a few here and there.
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#70
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"ok, so 3 x 3 does equal 9 but everyone knows 2 + 2 is 4, correct?"
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#71
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__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#72
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PSA and PSA/DNA are still the same company basically. I guess I could have used a card as an example. Would that make you feel better? |
#73
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key words in your statement "and", "basically".
seems i might be a lil more keen to what comprehension means than thou. commence to twisting... |
#74
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from
From what I have been told the wording is at advice from their council. I know there are things I do that I THIK ARE DUMB BUT I DO THEM BECAUSE MY LAWYER HAS ADVISED ME TO DO IT THAT WAY. Sorry bumped caps lock too lazy to retype. Do you do nothing or have your patients do something you think is dumb at advice of your lawyers. Thats all this is, plenty to go after PSA for but when you go after them about every little thing you begin to sound petty and get tuned out on the big stuff.
Last edited by glynparson; 04-28-2016 at 01:22 PM. |
#75
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PSA could handle fake cards more clearly.
To say that no company would take on the liability of being wrong about a fake is silly, since that's exactly what expertizers - the equivalent of grading companies for stamps - do regularly. If I send in a stamp I've identified as an rare expensive one, and I'm wrong, they send it back with a certificate describing it as what it actually is. Their pricing is a minimum, or a percentage of the catalog value. If I think it's one worth say 100 thousand, and it's not, they only charge the minimum or the price for what it is. If I send in an outright fake whether it was made by a famous forger, or by me just before sending it in, it comes back with a cert saying it's a fake. I think in the case of one done by someone famous like Sperati or Fournier, they state that as well. Altered stamps are described as altered, usually with the alteration described, so you get an indication if the alteration is a repair, which in some cases is ok but worth a lot less, or an alteration that's likely fraudulent. (Adding some paper to replace a missing piece is sort of ok, drawing in or removing part of the design is NOT. ) In a few really complex situations the cert will say "we decline to render an opinion" Which can mean a lot of things. Anywhere from the thing is too beat up or heavily cancelled to properly identify it, to a stamp that may be real, but is extremely unusual in some way, enough that more than one expert can't be sure, or that the experts disagree. And they can and do sometimes figure out later that something they thought was good isn't. And with enough evidence they'll recertify whatever it is as fake or as something else. PSA could do that easily. Either slab the reprints as reprints and give them a number grade, or slab as fake if it's not a commercially produced reprint. Steve B |
#76
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Quote:
__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#77
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Actually, that is mail fraud and a Federal Offense.
The seller ought to be turned in to the Postal Inspector. I would think they would be more than interested in this especially since the dude is using the US Mail to sell fraudulent materials. How is it Fraud? He stated it just came back from PSA. That is a lie.
__________________
Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com |
#78
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Which part is mail fraud? How do you know it didn't come back from PSA? In most cases its not against the law to lie. Is he or she selling something he presumes to be Authentic? You have to show intent. Its also under $100 which leads me to believe that the FBI is gonna pass since it would be at best a misdemeanor. This guy should be outed and shamed back into the dark hole that came from. This board does a great job of outing crap like this.
__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! Last edited by Pilot172000; 04-28-2016 at 02:23 PM. |
#79
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It's a very unfortunate situation. |
#80
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It seems like it would be worth sending in fakes to PSA when they are running one of their "specials" on grading. If I can spend around $5 to get a worthless reprint graded, and then show it clearly with the PSA label, and still get around $80 or so for it, I'd be making more money than selling real cards. Plus, I don't even have to lie about it. After all, he's clearly showing the PSA certification.
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#81
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__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#82
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No, they didn't pull it. He ran it as a 5 day auction and it ran it's course.
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#83
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David I agree with you that its a crap sale. Before I joined this board and learned more about the backs and front combos (thanks Sean and Ted) I would have considered crap like that.
__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#84
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Mic drop, indeed. Case closed. Pretty sad grown men took time from their days to argue over such trivial crap. The internet is a cesspool.
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#85
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#86
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kinda like a jacuzi.
it's all fine and dandy when there's bubbles... but once those jets stop working, people realize it's just warm community bathwater.... |
#87
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All of this, really? It's not against the law to lie (commit fraud)?
I believe PSA should use better wording on their flips for counterfeit cards. Maybe something like "counterfeit". There is no question mark needed. If they can't tell it's counterfeit then they shouldn't be charging for their services. Or they should send it back at no cost and say they don't know what they are doing and have no clue but leave their flip out of the equation. I would imagine countless people have gotten screwed by their "?".. I have always disliked their ambiguous wording on fake card flips. That being said, they are a great marketing company. They do a good job in grading, overall, too...imo. Quote:
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 04-29-2016 at 08:43 AM. |
#88
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FWIW, BGS would also return this as "questionable authenticity". The reason being, a card printed in someone's basement is distinctly different than a mass produced reprint of known origins. Equally worthless, but the nonetheless different. Questionable flip or not, some idiot would have spent 100x it's true value. Assigning any blame to PSA is absurd, but par for the course.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. Last edited by sbfinley; 04-29-2016 at 10:56 PM. |
#89
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__________________
Seeking Knowledge from all the old guys on Net54 before they get senile and forget! |
#90
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And, if M. Browne wants to continue to participate in this thread, he really needs to have his full name in his post, but for now I'll assume the 'M' stands for Meathead. |
#91
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The fact that they hide behind legal mumbo jumbo certainly doesn't make me like them any more. Last edited by ullmandds; 04-29-2016 at 10:02 AM. |
#92
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heres a psa: psa should be the least of your worries. and dont get on that rollercoaster! and dont you dare look at the back of a (insert favorite mlb team here) ticket! Last edited by begsu1013; 04-29-2016 at 10:19 AM. |
#93
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No...but I will say I am not a fan of legal, double speak mumbo jumbo written with the intent to deceive and confuse.
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#94
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#95
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really?
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#96
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This thread is about a pre-war card but is not entirely a pre-war conversation. If this side were very strictly kept to only pre-war cards themselves it would be a less fun place. Topics surrounding pre war seem fair game as well as a few off topics here and there (in moderation). I think summing it up (but still open for debate)- Many (and myself) think there could be better wording on the ?AUT flips. Many think it's fine the way it is. Most think lawyers have something to do with this issue. .
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Leon Luckey |
#97
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sorrybob...that was uncalled for...I'm going to take a time out now!
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#98
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Fixed it
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#99
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Thanks, Pat!
I would be fine if they just put N4 on the flip. At least that way if a potential buyer didn't know what that meant, they could go to PSA's website and at least see it's a counterfeit. "N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit" |
#100
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just a message board and nothing should be taken too seriously. time in. |
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