My thoughts on these stupid grading posts

[tedzan]

It is no surprise to many here....if I state how much I hate the Graded card phenomena. In my opinion....from the infamous
Alan Hager days (circa 1990), to the infamous PSA 8 Wagner, to the graded T206 fakes which were "Re-Fronted", to the pre-
sent situation....this Grading phenomena has adversely affected this BB card hobby. How many examples can offer of this ?
I will spare you how many.....as they are too numerous.

Unfortunately, there are many on this forum which have no way of comparing the present with the PPG (pre-professional gra-
ding) days of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. Therefore, they are stuck in the "plastic age" and cannot be truly objective
about negative aspects of this current grading craze. Once you start professionally assigning "numbers" to pieces of cardboard,
that have no inherent $$$$ value, you've opened up a pandora's box of problems, corruption, etc.

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby
would be alive and well without them."

Kevin Cummings 2nd that suggestion in his excellent post (#15) earlier in this thread.


I could say a lot more on this subject, but that will only "tick-off" more Net54er's here. Resulting in no one ever responding to
my future threads here

So, I'll leave you with....to each his own.


TED Z

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

TED Z

HELL NO!


If you love your cards, SET THEM FREE!


That's what I do.


And look at Jim Lemon. Just seeing that smile on his face is the only thanks that I need.

[Cat]

I generally skip over any of the grading threads (but I tend to skip over any thread about T206/T205s too). I think part of the problem is the grading threads get so many replies, and thus bumped to the top, that folks feel compelled to go back and find out what train-wreck they missed. I like my cards graded but I really don't care what the grade is. If I have to have a magnifying glass to identify that there is a wrinkle then I really don't care about that wrinkle. I think folks get way to technical with this stuff.

[Rob D.]

Ted,

It's easy to attempt to discredit someone or something by picking and choosing and listing only the negative. You're one of the more valued contributors to this board. You've also posted some comically ridiculous statements -- as have I and probably every other member of this board (except one). Were someone to list only your not-so-great posts in an attempt to discredit you on the whole, it would be pretty easy. Folks who are dead-set against professional grading are adept at listing all of the negatives and none of the positives.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now. Do I wish, like I'm sure you do, that there was a "less professional" feel to the hobby now like there was in the 1970s? Absolutely. But I also know that professional grading has done some good, and to try to turn a blind eye toward that fact doesn't help your cause.

[Chris Counts]

Great post, Kenny. I agree with most of what you say. I've never understood the whole graded card thing. Why should I pay extra for a trimmed card when I can just buy one raw for less money? I must admit, though, I get a guilty pleasure out of busting those darn things open. Curiously, the only card I've ever paid to get graded is a 1940 Play Ball color proof, and even though it's slabbed by SGC, I've had several folks here question its authenticity ...

[tedzan]

I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era.

Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect.

[tedzan]

I can have a discussion with Rob D on this subject.

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.


Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."

You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- to the contrary, I think a fair number of people on this board do not like third party grading. Is it time for yet another poll? Maybe I'll rustle one up.

[Orioles1954]

I choose to have my cards graded for three reasons: 1.) to protect them from my children who are both toddlers; 2.) if I should unexpectedly pass away, it would be way easier for my wife and 3.) they appear more attractive to me.

James

[tbob]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

+1

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).
TED Z

This can just as easily be rewritten to :

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display graded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).

Sorry that some of us intruded on your hobby and find that 3rd party grading and the internet assist us in our collecting efforts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;"

I don't think that is realistic. While obvious alterations are easy to detect, sophisticated ones are not, and my own view is that the grading services don't have the time or the technology to unmask them all. They are not FBI crime labs, and there are people out there who are VERY good at what they do.

[kkkkandp]

I'm surprised no one jumped on that until now.

As I tell the guys at SGC every time I pick up my cards, they sure look pretty in those holders.

[rdixon1208]

I just started collecting pre-war cards about a year and a half ago. I always thought they were awesome, but couldn't afford them. One of my first purchases was a three card lot off the BST. I thought the SGC holders really made the cards look good, and I was curious to know how they would grade them, so I sent them in. They all came back altered. I could see the alterations after they sent them back, but I didn't notice them online or in hand before that. So I stopped buying raw cards. Since I buy graded cards, I read the threads about grading services to gain knowledge...which is what this forum is about to me.

So for those of you that can spot a fake a mile away and don't need the services of a grading company...I'm happy for you. Your experience does you a service. But I'm not as experienced as you. If there weren't grading companies doing what they do, I wouldn't be able to participate in this hobby.

All that being said, I do get tired of reading about the same subject at times. It's cool though because I have a solution. I just go to the next thread.

[HRBAKER]

As I stated bf I collect both raw and graded and will continue to. May very well have the raw graded at some point maybe not. I can tell you this, I have a drawer full of several EXMT and NRMT beauties from the glory days of pre-TPG that are trimmed, colored, bleached and so on. Many and I mean many of these came from regular advertisers in the glory days of the SCD, many of whom are still in business.

[Fred]

Not to change the topic but just try to sell a real D304 Cobb that isn't graded and see how much money you'd lose because it isn't encased in plastic with a number on the label.

I don't mind threads about grading but I do agree that threads that rip third party grading companies because the poster received sub-expected grades is kind of boring. If you send in the cards then don't cry at what you get. Just accept it and move on. You can always bust the cards out and resubmit.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tedzan

your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

I have no attitude, man. Calm it down.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.

I've never dealt cards with you in my life or, in any event, demand that someone send me a check for the cost of grading cards.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."
You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?

Prices of cards have gone way up. The reason for that is because demand has gone way up. Simple math, man.

I am trying to be respectful because you obviously have a lot of knowledge to share, but you continue to turn off a lot of posters with your insensitive and rude remarks.

[FUBAR]

To me, the most important thing a grading company offers me is traceability. I do understand that cards can be broken out and sold raw, but it gives me the added security that should they be stolen, hopefully they could be tracked via their serial number.

I respect Ted's opinion probably more then anyone elses opinion. We differ on this one. I`m not pro grading nor am I anti grading. I can take cards graded or raw, doesn`t matter.

What matters to me is we all collect for the love of collecting and that is all that should really matter.

Guys will always like things different ways, graded or ungraded, big boobs or small ones, fast cars or luxury cars, blonds or brunettes. To each their own.... don`t take things personal if someone disagrees`... life is too short to worry about such trivial issues!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

As I stated bf I collect both raw and graded and will continue to. May very well have the raw graded at some point maybe not. I can tell you this, I have a drawer full of several EXMT and NRMT beauties from the glory days of pre-TPG that are trimmed, colored, bleached and so on. Many and I mean many of these came from regular advertisers in the glory days of the SCD, many of whom are still in business.

I had similar experience buying raw from SCD, EXCEPT for Mike Wheat whose cards were always fine.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

Ted,

I assure you, I do not take anti-grading comments personally. If third-party grading disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me a bit. Conversely, if it sticks around in its current form for 30 years, it won't bother me a bit. I've never bought a card that's in a slab solely because of how high the number is on the flip.

What I'm saying is when you and others who don't like third-party grading can't concede that the process hasn't done at least some good in the hobby, I think your overall argument loses merit.

You and others often choose to display your anti-grading sentiments as some kind of badge of honor, and that's your right. But you should at least be aware that collectors who prefer ungraded cards take more shots at those who don't share their views than the other way around. How does that help the hobby?

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

but you continue to turn off a lot of posters with your insensitive and rude remarks.

This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

In all fairness, and this isn't a criticism at all but rather a possible explanation, four months on the board isn't that long.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

This is just my opinion, but i have never found Ted to be rude nor insensitive.

Ted is clearly, by far and away, one of the most knowledgeble people on here. He has an incredible amount of valuable information to share, particularly about the set I love -- T206. I would want to do nothing to diminish his contribution to this Board and I always try to remind myself of this whenever he makes over-the-top comments that can be insulting.

But Ted does make such over-the-top comments, and they can easily be construed to be rude or insensitive. In fact, I found his latest comments to me on this thread to be such -- he made up a story about me "demanding" to be paid for the cost of grading cards from him, when I've never even exchanged a single card with the man or otherwise demanded to be paid for the cost of grading the card. And he called my opinion "laughable."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Kawika

On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

Thanks David. When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language but a few minor 4 letter words, sh**, da**, hell etc....aren't that big of a deal. The other day I totally blew it and slipped up and said an F bomb in front of her. She went straight to mom and told her what I said. I am still hearing about it. After that I am trying to curb my F-bomb usage in daily life, even if it is just under my breath. So, I ask all board members, before you post something, think about if it is ok for your, or someone elses, 13yr old to hear. If it is, then go for it...if not, then don't do it. And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it . This forum is about PG rated imho.....I try to be respectful of the women and children who might read it, even though they are probably few and far between, I know there are some. regards (and thanks again, David)

[chaddurbin]

the TPG bus with its dead, battered, beaten horse has been around the block a few times. everyone knows about the game. stop crying in the intances when it doesn't favor you, we don't want to hear about it and don't care.

also selectively nitpicking random examples to bolster your stance whether TPG is good/bad instead of looking at the whole picture is stupid. it's like looking at a small sample size and saying you'd rather have a team of david ecksteins in the playoffs than arods.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Leon

When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language...

If she goes to school with other, living, breathing, kids, she already hears way more of it than you want to know.

When my son was that age, and I was coaching his baseball team, I would bring my 9 year old daughter to practice. It helped control the mouths of the kids by having a "little girl" sitting on the bench... sometimes.

[FUBAR]

growing up working in the oilfield, i have trucker mouth a lot of times and don't realize it. The easiest way for me to control it is by typing.


Rob, i agree 4 months isn't that long, but comments made by people are all a matter of perception, if you look for rudeness and insensitivity you will find it. Take them for what they are , opinions, it is nothing personal. If you look at them like that, things will never bother you. The one thing about typing is you cannot see emotion or tone so therefore interpretation becomes more important. Just opinions, that's all.... just like my above statement, just a little net 54 love and an opinion!

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Leon

And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it .

Thanks for the chuckle Leon, I enjoyed this quote.

[Kawika]

No problem, Leon. But you gotta admit the Ichiro video was pretty funny. The old software automatically asterisked out profanities but the new version does not and a certain amount of vulgarity now pops up here on FiveFour. (This is probably not altogether a good thing because it's a slippery slope down to the Internet Cesspool). I have been guilty of it myself as I am a vulgar and profane kind of guy, and of the philosophy that sometimes nothing says it better than a well chosen curse word. A true story (had it not have happened it would have been apocryphal): One day long ago when I was six or so my brother and I were bouncing around the backseat singing "doodoo poopoo" or some such and my father turned around and ordered "Say 'shit', dammit!!" The rest is history.

[Rob D.]

"When they pull that needle out, I let the expletives fly!"

[Robextend]

HAHA good one Rob. I always felt that Kramer's interaction with Mel Torme was one of the highlights of the whole run.

[barrysloate]

I think that was one of Mel Torme's last performances before he died. And his voice was still golden.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think that was one of Mel Torme's last performances before he died. And his voice was still golden.

Golden??? Not velvet???

[barrysloate]

Velvet indeed.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now.

This gets a huge amen from me. There were no "good old days" in collecting, at least not by the late 1970's, when I started. Dealers were, by and large, not to be trusted. The hobby hasn't devolved due to grading and the Internet, it's gotten much, much better.


Bill

[calvindog]

Bill -- great avatar.

[Touch'EmAll]

By the quantity of responses, this topic DOES hit home with many of us - like it or not.

TPG has, for the most part, helped the hobby - lets be real folks.

Crying about grades IS part of the hobby nowadays - again, lets be real.

And partying with the good results is also very much part of the hobby.

I have been on both sides. Cry out loud if you want (to a certain extent), thats ok in my book. And rejoicing in the glory of a nice grade is very satisfying.

Finally, NO WAY would I be shelling out thousands in this hobby if it weren't for PSA & SGC.

[mark evans]

I think general discussions about TPG are a good thing as it has become a significant element of the hobby. Specific instances of disappointment may be less worthy of threads unless of an unusual nature in my view.

I share Bill C's view that TPG is a positive development. Even with its shortcomings, grading by one of the trusted companies provides a measure of reliability that, with the internet, allows most collectors access to many thousands of cards that they would otherwise not consider buying.

Its shortcomings appear two-fold: missing alterations and subjectivity. As to missing alterations, the companies should of course continue to strive to improve and stand behind their mistakes.

The problem of subjectivity cannot be overcome as it is implicit in the very nature of grading. There is no way the standards can be drawn tightly enough or applied in an identical manner every time (even by the same grader, let alone by all graders). Thus, while companies can take steps to improve consistency, there will always be unjustifiable discrepancies. (Over time, I should think this ambiguity would have the effect of reducing the differences in values among grades.)

Finally, it seems to me that these shortcomings exist to a greater degree in the non-slabbed world. Not that there is anything wrong with raw cards, which comprise the vast majority of my collection. They frequently offer a less costly alternative under certain circumstances; for example, where the buyer knows the seller and/or is not paying a large sum and/or is buying in person. But, adherents to the raw system ought to recognize that TPG serves a valuable function for the hobby.

[Rickyy]

I just like them slabbed for its appearence and protection...that's all it is for me...and though I can sympathize with the gist of this thread, I don't get frustrated or stressed reading these types of threads...it would be ironic if I came in here and get all upset...because the purpose of being here is to relieve such feelings..

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Rickyy

it would be ironic if I came in here and get all upset...because the purpose of being here is to relieve such feelings..

I like your style Rickyy