Legendary T-206 Honus Wagner

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In the spirit of Mastro/Legendary record retention policy I would expect the voicemail to be 'lost.'

Nooooo...the buyer just didn't pay for it before they sent it out. You'll get it Monday when GAI re-opens...Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Doug left me a voicemail today and simply said the Wagner is being graded and they don't know what it will be yet. He said he didn't feel it was appropriate to state the grade when they don't know what it is. It's as simple as that.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess, and this really is a guess as I don't know for sure, is that they were hoping to get a grade after the restoration was removed. Not all of it could be removed so it stayed in an AUT holder.

Now ya'll can continue in your "once upon a time" fairyland.....BTW, I wonder how much Jeff is paying to represent Dave? .

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Disclosure: It must be clarified that, although past restoration has been largely reversed, as described, under no circumstances would a qualified grading service or knowledgeable collector ever deem this card to be anything but a restored or altered example. In no way does our description intend to imply that this collectible should be regarded as anything but an authentic "altered" card."

ok...so why quote this Peter? This was written after it was back to AUT....I guess I am missing your conspiracy theory on this one?

[three25hits]

Why on earth is everyone questioning this fine company's motivation?

[Rob D.]

Dang it, in the pool I had before 5 p.m. for the first mention of a conspiracy theory. Just missed.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Dang it, in the pool I had before 5 p.m. for the first mention of a conspiracy theory. Just missed.

Rob- you still win...it's only 4pm CST!@!

[Rob D.]

I entered the east coast pool.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

where can i read the description in case it made into a 1 holder?

I think it's in the same chapter about me protecting banner advertisers .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

ok...so why quote this Peter? This was written after it was back to AUT....I guess I am missing your conspiracy theory on this one?

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

[batsballsbases]

Leon,
I read that book also! I believe the next line was "Do on to others but never let it be done to me" A quote from the mastro handbook

[barrysloate]

If the card came back graded a 2, would we have been given the same details about its past?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

Oh, so now you're saying that those are inconsistent assertions? Peter, give it a rest, next you're going to say that the moon is made of green cheese.

This exchange reminds me of when a woman comes home to find her husband in bed with another woman. She screams at him, "how could you do that to me!" Her husband, with the woman still on top of him says to his wife: "honey, what are you talking about? Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"

Seriously, have you ever seen a hobby/business where we are asked to willingly suspend disbelief so often? Where obvious lies and transparent excuses and coverups are so often thrown around with almost no concern at all?

[three25hits]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If the card came back graded a 2, would we have been given the same details about its past?

You're a conspiracist too?

[batsballsbases]

Barry,
I would have to say yes and the only reason I would say this is because I believe so many people knew about this card that if they tried to pass it off as anything but they would have lost every bit of respectability they have been trying to rebuild.

[barrysloate]

I'm just naturally skeptical.

[barrysloate]

Hi Al- hopefully you're correct. I agree they probably would have, but this is a funny hobby. Anything goes.

[batsballsbases]

Barry,
I guess the bottom line with all auction houses( let me correct that and say most) is that anyone who bids on very high end items needs to do as much homework on that item as possible. In the case of this wagner even a piss poor one will probably cost you lets say for arguement 20-40 thousand. Now the real question comes.Is someone willing to fork up lets say 100 thousand for this one that had now been altered? And as we now its stated right there for all to see. Altered can be a funny word as we know the Gretsky Wagner for years has been sited as being trimmed but yet as we know what the last price that card sold for. Bottom line is with something like this there is going to be a very limited amount of people who can bid on this card anyway. I believe if you really want a wagner there will be someone out there willing to put aside the "altered" word and buy it.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The disclosure statement clearly suggests there would NEVER have been a reasonable hope of getting a numerical grade. Yet he (apparently) sent it in hoping for one.

I'm certainly not about to apologize for these guys - and I would never, ever bid in one of their auctions (and I have not), but it does seem possible that the card was sent in to be deemed authentic...probably an important factor to a bidder looking at shelling out tens of thousands of dollars - knowing it is not a fake. And along the same line, one might say they didn't want to talk about the grade until PSA officially deemed the card authentic.

Cheers,
Blair

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by three25hits

You're a conspiracist too?

Conspiracist? Obviously, you're an anti-conspirite!

[dstudeba]

Sorry Blair, but I doubt that Legendary doesn't have (or believe they have) the in house expertise to tell if it was a fake or not. If they thought there was a chance it was a fake they wouldn't have put it in their press release.

If it came back in a 2 holder they might very well have disclosed the history of the card. However what is the point of doing the work to get it in a 2 holder if you intend to disclose that it is an AUT?

[JP]

Anybody amazed by how weak the lots they are offering are? Legendary appears to be struggling...

[e107collector]

JP,

I agree with the weak lots. There seems to be more non-sports, photos, and americana than cards. Very disappointed.

Tony

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

Sorry Blair, but I doubt that Legendary doesn't have (or believe they have) the in house expertise to tell if it was a fake or not.

I'm sure you are right, but the expectations of buyers are changing now. Clearly, this same card changed hands in the past on the basis only of a description and explanation by the seller. But today, if a card of this value isn't in a PSA or SGC holder, buyers think it must have been rejected by the grading companies (I've seen many such comments on this very Board).

With a "Franken-Wagner" like this, I think it makes a lot of sense as an auctioneer to have one of the big graders agree that the card under all that junk is actually an authentic Wagner.

Cheers,
Blair

[scottglevy]

I know that I am a very small fish....but the fact that I won't bid in any Legendary auction (and I respect them only marginally more than coaches corner) is indicative of how much damage they've caused to their reputation and therefore their brand and auction.

I suspect that some people may be able to find bargains there ... but I won't be looking.

Regards,
Scott

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

I know that I am a very small fish....but the fact that I won't bid in any Legendary auction (and I respect them only marginally more than coaches corner) is indicative of how much damage they've caused to their reputation and therefore their brand and auction.

I suspect that some people may be able to find bargains there ... but I won't be looking.

Regards,
Scott

Wow, Scott! I know you don't say that lightly.

What if they changed the name of the company again? Would that make it OK?

[Leon]

Generally there is a policy against posting emails but Doug asked me to post this for him in order to get the facts straight from him, concerning the Wagner card. He won't be responding in this thread. I can't say I blame him too much. He invited anyone that would like to go see the card to contact them and it can be done. That being said here is the email.

From: dallen@legendaryauctions.com [mailto:dallen@legendaryauctions.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:37 PM
To: leonl@flash.net
Subject: Clarification on Lot #1

Hey Leon,
Someone recently pointed out to me some comments made on Net54 regarding the T206 Wagner card. Although anyone who is interested in the card can call me directly or email me I thought it appropriate to clarify a few things:

#1�This card was never submitted for grading. I personally called Joe Orlando and told him that I would be overnighting a card to be considered for an Authentic/Altered holder. He can verify this.
#2 After being sold approximately 10 years ago the buyer of the card chose to have the restoration on the card reversed. This was not done to get it graded. He just thought that from an investment standpoint someone would prefer to have the unnatural restoration reversed. Funny thing is when he sold it a year or so later it went for about the same money!
#3 When I told you I did not know thecondition of the card it was because I had never personally seen the card. When the card arrived at the office I was out of town. I asked one of my employees to take the card to a conservationist to provide us feedback as to what vestiges of restoration remained on the card after the restoration was reversed. It is a significant card and I wanted a professional to look at the card so that we could properly describe it. It was based on their review that we identified the restoration that remained.�Anyone with any hobby experience can tell that the card has been altered. That was not a question. I felt the precise extent of the restoration was important. �

The bottom line is I can't imagine what more we could have done here. I am open to suggestions. We have described the history of the card even showing pictures of it when it was restored. We took great effort to make sure our description of what restoration remained was properly described and we emphatically state that this card will never get into a holder. Again I am open to suggestions.

All the best,
Doug

[bijoem]

Doug....

Since you are asking for suggestions.....

The first suggestion I would have is - - when someone calls you about the condition of a T206 Wagner that you know is altered (whether you personally saw the card or not)......

A great answer would be "it is altered" as opposed to "I don't know".

[batsballsbases]

Leon,
As I first stated I believe Doug was very honest with there description of the card.(maybe a little to descriptive) But that all comes with trying to get your client the most for their item. I also said that I believe the card will sell even with all the "alterations" that were done with it. I to believe in the statement Jeff L made why would anyone want to alter this card anyway. The best you could have hoped for is a 2 given the condition it was in without the changes. In my mind I think it really lowered the value of it now given the nature of all that has come out about the card. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. As for Legendary auctions I have bid in all the major auctions and Legendary is no exception,if there is an item I like I set a limit and if it exceeds that limit Im done. But I guess it should be a lesson to all auction houses if you want to play games just be ready when it hits the fan ! Because it comes back at you rather hard.

[calvindog]

You would need the Rosetta Stone and a polygraph machine to ever get the truth out of Doug Allen.

[Kenny Cole]

LOL, but the Rosetta Stone is a fabrication and polygraphs don't often, if ever, reveal the truth. Isn't that the basic theory underlying why all you criminal defense lawyers generally move to get them excluded? :-)

[batsballsbases]

Jeff,Jeff,Jeff
Didnt your mother tell you play nice with the other children!

[Anthony S.]

Um, when did the Rosetta Stone become a fabrication?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL, but the Rosetta Stone is a fabrication and polygraphs don't often, if ever, reveal the truth. Isn't that the basic theory underlying why all you criminal defense lawyers generally move to get them excluded? :-)

They're inadmissible in criminal cases so Doug should be ok with it.

[Kenny Cole]

You are correct, my bad. I was thinking of something else,

[Kenny Cole]

They are sometimes admissible in civil cases. It's kind of funny to watch an insurance company, which has done an examination under oath and had the insured undergo a polygraph, move to exclude the test it wanted done because the results weren't as hoped for.

[batsballsbases]

Well it looks like all the altering didnt effect the price The card opened and is now at 110,000.