Teams negotiate to get back homerun balls

[howard38]

/

[Exhibitman]

"Maybe Jeter didn't do the right thing. That is no reason to hold up "the poor bastard" to ridicule."

Yeah, there is: Stupidity. I never applaud stupidity, regardless of what pieties it is cloaked in. This was not an act of charity. Giving a valuable artifact to an orphanage to auction off to pay for food and clothing for the kiddies is charity. Giving an artifact of baseball history to the HOF to display and share is commendable. Giving the artifact to a rich entertainer to put in his trophy case for a tiny fraction of its worth because you are starstruck is stupid.

Let's be very clear: there is no "right" or "wrong" thing to do with a baseball you catch at a ballgame. It is not a moral question. The team grants you the right to keep the ball or dispose of it as you wish as part of the ticket [license] to enter its property. What you do with it is a business decision. Jeter did not do the right thing or the wrong thing; he and the Yankees did the shrewd thing. Lopez, however, did the stupid thing. In this world, in this economy, you have to protect your own interests first and foremost. The kid had bills to pay and debts to cover and a future family to provide for, and he threw away a winning lottery ticket. That is not commendable, it is dumb.

And yes, I am a callous, unsentimental bastard; comes with the J.D.

[Gary Dunaier]

I don't know if I'm hijacking the thread by asking this, but with Santana's no-hitter having taken place Friday night, this seems like a good place to ask.

One of the things we hear in the coverage of milestone home run balls is that the fan who finally comes up with the ball is immediately liable for taxes on the presumed market value, regardless of what the fan does with it.

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

[drc]

Good question.

[packs]

Not sure. If you don't sell the ball how is the market value determined? What if you paid taxes and then later sold the ball for more? Or less? Can you tax sentimental values?

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by packs

Not sure. If you don't sell the ball how is the market value determined? What if you paid taxes and then later sold the ball for more? Or less? Can you tax sentimental values?

Found this relating to Barry Bonds' "756th" home run ball...

By most estimates, the ball that put Bonds atop the list of all-time home run hitters with 756 would sell in the half-million dollar range on the open market or at auction.

That would instantly put [the fan who came up with the ball, Matt Murphy,] in the highest tax bracket for individual income, where he would face a tax rate of about 35 percent, or about $210,000 on a $600,000 ball.

"It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a veteran tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday,"

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said.

(Underlining added by me. Source: ESPN post, August 9, 2007.)

For the record, I don't think any of this stuff should be taxed unless, and until, the item actually gets sold. Fans who catch ordinary foul balls, or balls that are tossed into the stands by players and coaches, aren't taxed on those balls' value. (And these balls do have value, because some teams sell game-used balls to fans in their team stores.) So a fan who catches a milestone ball should also get it for "free," unless and until he decides to sell it.

But I also believe in fair, equal treatment. So if a fan who catches a milestone ball is immediately responsible for paying taxes on it, then - as a Mets fan, I feel weird saying this, especially because Johan Santana seems like a nice guy - it's only fair that Johan Santana, or the New York Mets, or whoever actually "owns" the ball, should be equally responsible for a similar tax liability.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

I don't know if I'm hijacking the thread by asking this, but with Santana's no-hitter having taken place Friday night, this seems like a good place to ask.

One of the things we hear in the coverage of milestone home run balls is that the fan who finally comes up with the ball is immediately liable for taxes on the presumed market value, regardless of what the fan does with it.

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

Gary,
No disrespect, but IMHO I can't imagine that the final strike ball from Santana's no-hit game would bring anywhere near six figures. Outside of the game ball from Don Larsen's perfect game in the 1956 World Series, I can't imagine any no-hit ball from the modern era selling for north of $10,000.

Nolan Ryan threw 7 no-hitters and the most that any of his no-hit balls ever sold for was about $7,300 back in 1994 (a game used no-hit ball from his 7th no-hitter).

I'm quite sure that a player would never pay taxes on a ball from a game like this unless they sold it. Souvenir vs. capital gains...

Just my 2 cents....

[mcgwirecom]

Hey Scott, if someone put that last out ball on Ebay right after the game they may have gotten 5 figures! Remember someone paid $500 for a ticket! LOL


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc



And $400 for one! Insane!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mcgwirecom

Hey Scott, if someone put that last out ball on Ebay right after the game they may have gotten 5 figures! Remember someone paid $500 for a ticket! LOL


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc



And $400 for one! Insane!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...vip=true&rt=nc

Randall,

I'm not so sure... Obviously if it was the final pitch of the game that would add even more to the value. I still can't see it reaching $10,000 though...

[thekingofclout]

Hey Scott. I think you're so wrapped up in your Ryan collection , you're forgetting about another So Cal Pitcher who would have certainly broke the five figure mark.

Final Out Ball from Koufax's Perfecto (which may come to market someday, unless it's in Cooperstown) would easily hit the five figure mark! It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it went for $50,000 either. I would imagine that some of his other milestone balls could fetch more than 10K. Final Outs of the other No-Nos. #382. And the Ball that he struck out his 15 Yankee to set the World Series Record and win Game 1 of the '63 Series all come to mind. How about the Ball from his First Major League Win?

Sandy has a very, VERY, strong and wealthy following of Fans as the prices realized for just about all of his Game Used Gear will attest. And I just don't see that changing anytime soon...

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance.

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Gary,
No disrespect, but IMHO I can't imagine that the final strike ball from Santana's no-hit game would bring anywhere near six figures.

No disrespect inferred. It's probably academic, anyway. Unless Johan Santana himself owns the ball, it will probably never be in a private collection. You might as well speculate about the value of the Liberty Bell or the Declaration of Indepencence (the original one, with the actual signatures) should they ever be put up for auction - not gonna happen, as the guy on "Pawn Stars" is wont to say.

My "six figure" guess also took into account the emotion factor. Not only was this the Mets' first no-hitter, but it took place in the team's 51st season, so their fans have been waiting for this a looooooong time. Add to that the passion Mets fans have for their team, and you can understand how someone got so caught up in it all that maybe 12 hours or so after the final out, they were willing to pay $500 for a ticket from the game.

[Splinte1941]

A little off topic, and by no means am I trying to rain on the parade, but I know a lot of Mets fans personally who aren't sharing the excitement I've seen here and in the media.

Beltran was clearly robbed of a base hit, the ball landed fair, dead smack on the chalk, and it was so blatant that these guys I know who are lifelong degenerate Mets fans feel the whole thing is a total asterisk. The guy really didn't throw a no-hitter.

No hitters and perfect games should never be decided by accidents, mistakes, bad calls, etc. even though we know sometimes they are. Armando Galaraga and Jim Joyce say hello.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by splinte1941

a little off topic, and by no means am i trying to rain on the parade, but i know a lot of mets fans personally who aren't sharing the excitement i've seen here and in the media.

Beltran was clearly robbed of a base hit, the ball landed fair, dead smack on the chalk, and it was so blatant that these guys i know who are lifelong degenerate mets fans feel the whole thing is a total asterisk. The guy really didn't throw a no-hitter.

No hitters and perfect games should never be decided by accidents, mistakes, bad calls, etc. Even though we know sometimes they are. Armando galaraga and jim joyce say hello.

+100

[Leon]

For my first 49 yrs in Texas we had no In N Out Burger joints. IN the last year they have built about 100 in N. Texas. They are literally on almost every street corner now. I think they have over built. Their burgers are good but do we really need one on every freaking corner? Scott- you should have asked for your burger "animal Style." It rocks.

BTW, back to topic. Bad calls are a part of the game. And on the original question, I personally think the fans should hold out for every darned penny they can get for a ball they get at a game. Why not, the owners and team make tons of money.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

The ball Santana threw for the final strike never left the field and is presumably in the custody of Santana or the Mets. I think it's safe to say that if this ball were put up for auction, it would sell for six figures due to its historical significance. I'm wondering if Santana or the Mets is just as liable for taxes on the value of the ball, whether or not they actually sell it - or does that just apply to fans?

This may be a dead issue as far as Net 54 is concerned, so more for the historical record than anything else, I came across a video of the Mets celebrating Santana's no-hitter (link here, then click on "Must C Classic: Santana finishes off Mets first no-no"), and at 1:03 we see Mets catcher Josh Thole handing Santana a baseball, which I presume is the one that was used to make the final out. Whether or not he still has it is unknown (it could be in his posession, the Mets might have asked for it for the Mets Museum, maybe even Cooperstown wants it, who knows?), but it was given to him.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

This may be a dead issue as far as Net 54 is concerned, so more for the historical record than anything else, I came across a video of the Mets celebrating Santana's no-hitter (link here, then click on "Must C Classic: Santana finishes off Mets first no-no"), and at 1:03 we see Mets catcher Josh Thole handing Santana a baseball, which I presume is the one that was used to make the final out. Whether or not he still has it is unknown (it could be in his posession, the Mets might have asked for it for the Mets Museum, maybe even Cooperstown wants it, who knows?), but it was given to him.

Gary,
FWIW, this is not a huge surprise. No-hit pitchers are usually always given the last ball used in the game as their own personal trophy of sorts. What they do with it after would depend on the player...

BTW, when the BB HOF in Cooperstown calls after a no-hit game like this they typically ask for the uniform, hat and sometimes the cleats of the pitcher.

[mcgwirecom]

Was watching Matt Cains Perfect Game Wednesday night. The first thing I noticed after the last out was Brandon Belt sticking the ball in his back pocket...LOL. I hope he gave it back later.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

No-hit pitchers are usually always given the last ball used in the game as their own personal trophy of sorts. What they do with it after would depend on the player...

I never thought of the "trophy" aspect of it. I know they put aside a player's first hit to give to him, but in this case I guess my collector's mentality was working overtime...

[RichardSimon]

btw - the Mets REPRINTED all the tickets to that Santana no hit game and are selling them for $50 apiece. Yeah, fifty bucks for a repro.
Pretty cheezy in my mind and I am a Mets fan.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...9106--mlb.html

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

"Maybe Jeter didn't do the right thing. That is no reason to hold up "the poor bastard" to ridicule."

Yeah, there is: Stupidity. I never applaud stupidity, regardless of what pieties it is cloaked in. This was not an act of charity. Giving a valuable artifact to an orphanage to auction off to pay for food and clothing for the kiddies is charity. Giving an artifact of baseball history to the HOF to display and share is commendable. Giving the artifact to a rich entertainer to put in his trophy case for a tiny fraction of its worth because you are starstruck is stupid.

Let's be very clear: there is no "right" or "wrong" thing to do with a baseball you catch at a ballgame. It is not a moral question. The team grants you the right to keep the ball or dispose of it as you wish as part of the ticket [license] to enter its property. What you do with it is a business decision. Jeter did not do the right thing or the wrong thing; he and the Yankees did the shrewd thing. Lopez, however, did the stupid thing. In this world, in this economy, you have to protect your own interests first and foremost. The kid had bills to pay and debts to cover and a future family to provide for, and he threw away a winning lottery ticket. That is not commendable, it is dumb.

And yes, I am a callous, unsentimental bastard; comes with the J.D.

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