Bob Gibson Underated

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by BearBailey

I think you are confusing under rated card values versus under rated player rankings. I would agree that Gibson's cards are undervalued especially his high number 59 topps RC. But as a player I feel he is over rated, that does not mean he wasn't great, but compared to other pitchers, even from that era. Compare his stats and numbers to Jim Palmer and then try and guess why Gibson's RC is so much more than Palmer's? Maris RC as another poster stated is so high due to 61 and being a Yankee for a portion of his career.

Jim Palmer was an AL pitcher. He didn't have to bat so his fatigue wasn't going to be as high later in the games. Also the batters and parks he pitched in are not comparable. If you look at his value rating on Baseball Reference they are very close.

[nolemmings]

I agree with the other posters on differentiating between the player and his rookie cards. Also, Topps didn't do Gibby any favors putting him with a pink background

Gibson and Carlton are remarkably close stats wise, but I can see Carlton being considered slightly better. Longevity didn't help Carlton, it hurt him, bad, at least as far as his legacy carrying a tag of hanger-on. If you just look at his stats through 17 seasons--the number of seasons Gibson pitched--Carlton's numbers are slightly better. He has a few more wins and Ks than Gibson during that time, and his ERA is comparable but slightly higher (I think 2.99 -2.91). Throw in the fact that Carlton lost 1/3 of a great season to a labor strike and that Gibson pitched half his career with a pitcher-benefiting higher mound (Carlton had use of that only one full season) and I think a case can be made that Lefty was the better pitcher. Not by much though, and I wouldn't strongly oppose the counterargument.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Gibson and Carlton are remarkably close stats wise, but I can see Carlton being considered slightly better. Longevity didn't help Carlton, it hurt him, bad, at least as far as his legacy carrying a tag of hanger-on. If you just look at his stats through 17 seasons--the number of seasons Gibson pitched--Carlton's numbers are slightly better. He has a few more wins and Ks than Gibson during that time, and his ERA is comparable but slightly higher (I think 2.99 -2.91). Throw in the fact that Carlton lost 1/3 of a great season to a labor strike and that Gibson pitched half his career with a pitcher-benefiting higher mound (Carlton had use of that only one full season) and I think a case can be made that Lefty was the better pitcher. Not by much though, and I wouldn't strongly oppose the counterargument.

My point was that overall I don't think it is cut and dry who was superior to the other. Yet when you compare the two together in the only full on comparison of being on the same team it shows that Gibson was the better player... the problem even with that is that Gibson's best year is mixed in that and Carlton's comes after going to Philly.

If you look at them overall as a value to the Team. I think Gibson may edge out Carlton. Any list of 20 top hitting pitchers would have Gibson on it.

Even then, though, I can't say that one is superior over the other. I think it is too close to call one superior. They were both great neither one deserves to be considered better than the other in my view. Their stats are so close. Neither one just dominates over the other.

[bigtrain]

If you look up Gibson on baseballreference.com, Jim Palmer is considered to be the player most similar. Both were terrific pitchers. Just wanted to point out that Palmer had three 20 win seasons before the DH rule went into effect.

[drc]

In general, Tom Seaver and Steve Carleton are considered the best pitchers of their era.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by drc

In general, Tom Seaver and Steve Carleton are considered the best pitchers of their era.

So this just backs up the OP. Bob Gibson is under rated. Gibson's career pitching stats are comparable.

With his best year ERA besting everyone of the Post WW era.
He bests Carlton in Career Shutouts with a sho:gs ratio of 1:8.6 (Seaver 1:10.6, Carlton 1:12.9)
He is between Seaver and Carlton with his Career ERA
Gibson had more complete games than Carlton (with less starts)
Gibson's CG:GS Ratio is 1:1.89
Seaver's CG:GS Ratio is 1:2.8
Carlton's CG:GS Ratio is 1:2.79


Gibson's SO:IP ratio is 1:1.25
Seaver's SO:IP ratio is 1:1.31
Carlton's SO:IP ratio is 1:1.26

You can not have a list of best pitchers and not have Gibson on the list. Then on top of it, as I mentioned before, Gibson was a hitting pitcher. With a BA of .303 in a season with over 100 PA.

They are all great pitchers. They will always be considered some of the greats.

[howard38]

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06-02-2012, 12:55 PM




travrosty
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Quote:

Originally Posted by alanu


I may be a little biased since Bob Gibson is from Nebraska, but I think he's underrated as one of baseball's great pitchers and believe he's one of the best athletes in the hall of fame along with Dave Winfield.


As for card values, it's hard to see Maris's card worth more than his, but I understand why and it's too hard to compare other RC cards from other years.



he was a H globetrotter, a good ballplayer on many fronts.



















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06-02-2012, 12:55 PM




travrosty
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,239



Quote:

Originally Posted by alanu


I may be a little biased since Bob Gibson is from Nebraska, but I think he's underrated as one of baseball's great pitchers and believe he's one of the best athletes in the hall of fame along with Dave Winfield.


As for card values, it's hard to see Maris's card worth more than his, but I understand why and it's too hard to compare other RC cards from other years.



he was a Harlem globetrotter, a good ballplayer on many fronts.



Last edited by travrosty; 06-02-2012 at 12:55 PM.























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[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I agree with the other posters on differentiating between the player and his rookie cards. Also, Topps didn't do Gibby any favors putting him with a pink background

Gibson and Carlton are remarkably close stats wise, but I can see Carlton being considered slightly better. Longevity didn't help Carlton, it hurt him, bad, at least as far as his legacy carrying a tag of hanger-on. If you just look at his stats through 17 seasons--the number of seasons Gibson pitched--Carlton's numbers are slightly better. He has a few more wins and Ks than Gibson during that time, and his ERA is comparable but slightly higher (I think 2.99 -2.91). Throw in the fact that Carlton lost 1/3 of a great season to a labor strike and that Gibson pitched half his career with a pitcher-benefiting higher mound (Carlton had use of that only one full season) and I think a case can be made that Lefty was the better pitcher. Not by much though, and I wouldn't strongly oppose the counterargument.

You are right Gibson's rookie is an ugly card.

[alanu]

I may be a little biased since Bob Gibson is from Nebraska, but I think he's underrated as one of baseball's great pitchers and believe he's one of the best athletes in the hall of fame along with Dave Winfield.

As for card values, it's hard to see Maris's card worth more than his, but I understand why and it's too hard to compare other RC cards from other years.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by alanu

I may be a little biased since Bob Gibson is from Nebraska, but I think he's underrated as one of baseball's great pitchers and believe he's one of the best athletes in the hall of fame along with Dave Winfield.

As for card values, it's hard to see Maris's card worth more than his, but I understand why and it's too hard to compare other RC cards from other years.

he was a H globetrotter, a good ballplayer on many fronts.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by alanu

I may be a little biased since Bob Gibson is from Nebraska, but I think he's underrated as one of baseball's great pitchers and believe he's one of the best athletes in the hall of fame along with Dave Winfield.

As for card values, it's hard to see Maris's card worth more than his, but I understand why and it's too hard to compare other RC cards from other years.

he was a Harlem globetrotter, a good ballplayer on many fronts.