Moral of story: don't sell an altered card. Sorry that I have to out a fellow member.

[4815162342]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145241

[wonkaticket]

This kind of stuff is all over the place. It seems everybody has his or her way of spinning the facts or leaving them out in this case to make a sale. I agree 100% true and direct honesty would be super but it’s not going to happen sort of like wanting world peace.

Example below not picking on these guys alone but here’s one that stuck out as a scratch head moment…

“we are totally mystified as to why this card did not receive a mid-grade assessment? Steadfastly scouring the card for any possible paper loss or diminutive damage to the surface, we cannot locate any such blemishes, leaving us to only assume there is some microscopic like flaw(s) only evident via a high-powered lens. Yet, if a virtually undetectable flaw is the issue relating to the assigned grade, we would think the card should merit “at least” a VG assessment. Unquestionably, the overall aesthetics are consistent with a VG/EX to EX grade, and one can only ponder the nature of the current grade.”

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=22332

Really totally mystified? It’s a mystery of the greater universe that Hawking himself could lend no rhyme or reason to as to why this card is a 1. There was no way to contact PSA and ask how did this happen…why has this anomaly occurred? There was no powered lens or equipment budget within reach of Goodwin & Company review this card….oh the humanity.

All in all just busting balls here can’t fault them for trying to sell a card it’s their job. However one could easily say also they weren’t too forthcoming or as forthcoming as they could have been either on a card for sale.

Translation of the above original write up. Card has an obvious flaw somewhere but is super nice for the grade and we would like to leave a little room for romance for our bidders so that we can maximize the sale.

Something to consider IMO when getting upset on this Mano’s deal.

Cheers,

John

[glchen]

I think you MUST disclose that this card came back from PSA as Altered. Look at this thread here: Link. In this thread, the seller cracked a card out of a SGC 30/2 holder, and then advertised the raw card as EX/EX+. Now are people saying that doing this is perfectly legitimate? After all, it is only a TPG's OPINION that the card is a 2 (Good). Grading is subjective, so if the seller wants to crack it out and advertise the card as Excellent, this is perfectly okay? I say this is dishonest, exactly like the case in this thread.

The case where someone cracked out a card 15 times before finally getting the grade he wanted is different. In that case, a disinterested third party gave their professional opinion on that grade. Sure, they gave a different opinion the 15 times before. However, they don't have a dog in this fight. In this case, the seller has an obvious conflict of interest because he will directly profit from the own grading that he is giving, especially when he knows a TPG gave a different assessment. He should say something along the lines that "PSA gave this card an Authentic/Altered grade. However, I believe the card is not trimmed. Look at the bottom edge closely, and you as the buyer be the judge."

I would add that if you KNOW the TPG is wrong, then you should disclose that. For example, if there is a mark on the card that the TPG misses, you should disclose it.

[HRBAKER]

Good point(s) John.
There is a difference btw disagreeing or romancing away an assessment and failing to mention one.

[glynparson]

of the current seller. Dont know the op.

[wonkaticket]

Jeff,

Agree 100% that’s why I say the term “left out" above and you’re right no argument here.

Sadly in the end both practices are at the core dishonest and ultimately put collectors at risk of being ripped off or taken advantage of, regardless of the fact that it’s a $99 Mano’s super flip special or a multi-thousand dollar card.

100% disclosure when it comes to this stuff is just pie in the sky thinking IMO. It’s a wonderful dream but I just don’t see it going down anytime soon.

All we can do is do what we can point it out to each other and buyer beware....

Cheers,

John

[RGold]

This thread has now surpassed the Ethical Question/How to Cheat Paypal thread.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Nevermind what has already been written regarding the "ethics of disclosure debate"! Forget about assessing whether to trust a grading company who has earned the reputation of making countless mistakes in rendering grades! Don't even waste your time thinking about trusting an Ebay seller with an unimpressive feedback rating coupled with the fact he has virtually unknown card grading credentials plus the shameless issue of having a pecuniary interest in the sale of the card in question! What's really important that something truly momentous has spawned out of this hobby fiasco that could change the face of sportscard collecting forever!

Anyone who is a fan of the truly awful early 1950's to late 1960's campy horror cinema genre or watched Mystery Science Theater 3000 knows about the most dreadful movie ever put on film: Manos: The Hands of Fate.




For those of not familiar with this film, check out the Rotten Tomatoes Reviews:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mano...hands-of-fate/


Now through the inspiration of the above mentioned cinematic catastophy, what our esteemed Net54 member Jim Manos has just achieved could generate a whole new concept in Ebay auctions: "Manos: The Grader of Fate".

As we all have observed, for some imponderable reason, people will spend vast amounts of money to watch horror movies that will frighten them beyond reason. The Ebay auction referenced in this thread is only the beginning! An on-going series of auctions can be devised where sportscard collectors bid on "questionable" cards graded both by Manos and PSA that will most assuredly subject hobbyists to a reign of utter confusion, financial destruction, abject chaos and push them to the brink of insanity. Who knows, it could trigger a reality show or even a movie sequel to Manos: The Hands of Fate. Here's my initial pitch:

[jcmtiger]

I bought a card a couple of years ago from Jim, it came with tape on the card. Not disclosed.. When I emailed him he said he would take money off the next card I bought from him. I have never purchased again. he does like to flip cards.

Joe

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

i bought a card a couple of years ago from jim, it came with tape on the card. Not disclosed.. When i emailed him he said he would take money off the next card i bought from him. I have never purchased again. He does like to flip cards.

Joe

Says YOU it was tape. I suppose you believed your lying eyes?

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I have had a similar buying experience where I had serious problems with the transaction and the response I got was the same "I'll take care of you in our next transaction".

Well, Mr. Verkman, as you know there has been no future transactions and will never be. All you are ever getting from me is reminders of your bad customer service and not fulfilling your end of an auction transaction. It appears Mr. Manos falls under this category.

Lee Behrens

[chaddurbin]

saying from the old board...MANOS~!

[Ladder7]

Read the whole thing and wonder, What the Hell took so long?

[mcadams]

Funny that some people will trade their integrity for $40. This story has nothing to do with PSA. This story has everything to do with a seller trying to hide pertinent information in a lame attempt to make $40.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Well, it looks like 2 people don't read this board and Jim got what he wanted (a PROFIT), I hope it was worth Mr. Manos.

I seriously support him from being banned from the BST. If he does not get banned all that believe he has done wrong should never deal with him again, but the biggest penalty to him would be the ban from the BST, to me he does not deserve the free service.

Lee Behrens

[Tao_Moko]

My pregnant wife is less dramatic and emotional. I'll close with some of these cutesy, smiley face thingy's....eek:

[FrankWakefield]

Anyone send a link of this thread to the buyer???

[Brian Van Horn]

Please note the bidder's history:

url]http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=120920062796&aid=t***o&eu=IH4Fi34W1yWswJ89IvUdKg8zeH4HIkKF&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink[/url]

If you can not view link, go to the original link and check the buyer's history:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...S:1123#vi-desc

[JasonD08]

While I rarely post on here.....I do read article here almost everyday. While I see a little bit of frustration on the poster's part, I think there are bigger fishes to fry. I have had 2 significant dealings with Manos years in the past and I found he was fair and honest. I have no ties to Jim nor have I spoke with him in atleast 5 years, but my opinion is that you need to educate yourself on the product that you are buying and if y ou are not sure perhaps you need to not purchase or bid. I am completely 100% for truth and forth comings, but to rail a long time member on this is not right. I know what is like to get falsely accused....(not that is really matter in life on a baseball card message board), but the train can derail fast. If you dont like it, then dont buy it. I am sure most here have disagreed with PSA assessments in the past and most if not all have resubmitted in hopes of higher grades. I see nothing wrong with the item description as long as it was there in the beginning. I thin Wonka (John) hit it on the head.


Jason
(long long time pre-Elliott board member if that's a big deal)

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

Just one question. You indicate you know what it is like to be falsely accused. The point is that I sold Jim the card with the "Altered" label. The label was not included in the listing and the word "altered" was added later after this thread was posted and the thread was posted after Jim was e-mailed via eBay to put the word "altered" in the listing. What is false? A material fact was left out of the listing and an eBay buyer with a rating over 200 has bought the card.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

One of the big problem I have with it is that Jim also sells graded cards, why doesn't he crack them out and apply his own grade to them? If he sold strictly raw I would have no problem with it. But he is picking and choosing when the TPGs are convenient for his profit making and if some gets misinformed tough luck.

At always amazing me with people that support questionable dealers and deals. Legendary keeps ticking with basically the same people minus the Mastro name,. What makes them any different than the past?

Lee

[tiger8mush]

And I think what makes this person different (than others on ebay who sell a possibly-altered card w/o mention of the possible alteration as it happens all the time) is that this one buys/sells on our b/s/t. Hits a little closer to home

[JasonD08]

Brian Van Horn


I didnt clarify too well. I am not saying that Jim was falsely accused. I just know when I had been, a trainwreck followed. I just simply was implying that it isn't right to railroad a veteran board member and drive this into the ground. As the auction description stands now, I have no problem with it.

Jason

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

For the most part I agree. The only concern I have now is whether the buyer is aware of the PSA decision on the card.

[JasonD08]

I am not defending him.....we all have the right to list and sell how we choose. If I do not like a seller's moral disposition or I find the item somewhat suspicious I just simply do not bid or avoid them altogether. Perhaps if everyone did the same, the message would be sent.........again buy beware. Kharma always has a way of showing up. I think personally this one hit close to home for Mr. Van Horn and he is upset about it. While I am all for raising awareness to rip offs on ebay and false information, again it is buy beware and the fact Jim put in the description that it may be altered, I have no problem with it. I am guessing that a few that responded here has had cards bumped in resubs, or cards even trimmed or altered in previous submissions resubmitted. I personally have had issues with 3rd party grading in the past.


Jason