How to put the Forgers Out of Business Quickly

[HexsHeroes]

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. . . is among the list of trusted autograph dealers that I have bought from (along with Averitt, Corcoran, Simon, Gordon, Keating, and Albersheim).

What Jim stated makes sense to me. 100% foolproof it's not, but I'd much rather take most of my chances with these gentlemen, and the remainder on my own opinion, then with most of the unknowns out there.

Thanks Jim.

[travrosty]

I go to the mall of america here in bloomington, they have a field of dreams store. they have mantle, williams, dimaggio large signed photos. i dont like the autographs, they are hologrammned by a document examiner and would come with a field of dreams cert.

so someone who is not deep in the hobby might spend a few hundred dollars because as far as they know, they are shopping at a respected place and it has a couple of certs with the item.

[tinkereversandme]

Welcome aboard Jim. Sure low dollar pieces will always find a home (I.E Sauderton outfit) but it's often hard to find good stories when 80-90% (depending) of the product is fraudulent and it doesn't seem like that trend will stop, but grow. Great dealers are being punished for being honest and it doesn't seem like there isn't the interest to start an organization or lead some kind of revolt against the common enemy. It's just going to get worse... IMO.

Regards,

Larry

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I go to the mall of america here in bloomington, they have a field of dreams store. they have mantle, williams, dimaggio large signed photos. i dont like the autographs, they are hologrammned by a document examiner and would come with a field of dreams cert.

so someone who is not deep in the hobby might spend a few hundred dollars because as far as they know, they are shopping at a respected place and it has a couple of certs with the item.

That is scary and I am sure the mall has no idea and probably does not care as long as they pay their rent.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

That is scary and I am sure the mall has no idea and probably does not care as long as they pay their rent.

No, they don't because FOD can always claim the hologrammed item is from someone with "credentials in questioned documents," so the mall will say "what more do you want? can't top that!

[RichardSimon]

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

[Wymers Auction]

Richard I would not guarantee a refund that is not fair to you at all. The auctioneer that states this ridiculous law about you are responsible for payment even if the items are bogus is a complete moron. I think he should call a lawyer and just have him apply a small amount of heat to this auctioneers butt and see what happens. COA's in many cases override the "AS-IS Where is no guarantees impressed or implied" because you have included a piece of paper that implies authenticity. If the auctioneer includes no COA and states it "appears to have been signed" it would be very tough to get a refund. I also feel like he has the burden of proof due to his own negligence to show these are bogus with a credible authenticator. I hope this helps and I am no expert on autos as you know, but I am privy to auction law and know many auctioneers that can help me with an auction law question.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

Which brings me back to the "net54 PAC". Millions of people buy stuff for resale. (I do it a lot. American Pickers INFURIATES me when they buy ONE item out of a box of NOS vintage collectibles ). A tiny percentage are true autograph dealers. We can be of service to many by bringing the heat on a larger scale.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Earlier today I got a phone call from someone who bought some autographs from an auction house that we have already discussed here. (not a real sports auction house, but a fringe auctioneer).
He tells me that after he bought them and before he paid he sent scans to Global who would not render an opinion. He said that, I don't know if that really happened.
The guy, all of a sudden, was worried that he bought bad stuff and asked the auctioneer to let him out of his bids. The auctioneer said that according to state law the buyer was responsible for payment even in the event that bogus material was sold.
He said he bought a Ruth signed ball for $850. Yeah, $850,not eight thousand.
Once he said that I just lost it. I chided him for deciding to check out the stuff AFTER the auction had ended. "Well, my partner called me and told me we could buy some stuff cheaply," was his answer.
"What should I do now?" he asks.
What am I supposed to tell him. That he is a schmuck? I wanted to but I did not.
I told him to speak to a lawyer and he asked me if he paid for them and sent them to me and I rejected them would that be enough to get his money back. How am I supposed to answer that question?
Man, sometimes I just get fed up, you know?
The guy and his partner were apparently not collectors, just fast buck artists, trying to cash in on cheap auction prices, when the entire country is full of smart, on the lookout, people who would never let a legit Ruth ball go for $850. But they thought that they were smarter than everyone else.

Makes one wonder how hundreds of times a week stuff like that happens.

It's no different than those people who bought thousands of pieces of horrific crap from AlwaysAtAuction with their advertising reading "Compare At $1800.00" for a Mantle signed piece authenticated by Ted Taylor (TTA/Stat Authentic), Nicholas Burczyk, Chris Morales and Drew Max.

Those buyers then took their purchased autographs and planned to flip them on Ebay and make a killing. I'm sure a few people might have made a small profit on that crap, but after it was discovered, the majority of that crap was removed by Ebay, and shortly thereafter, Ebay placed Chris Morales and Nicholas Burczyk on their "Banned COA" list.

How many of those buyers are holding on to that crap thinking they will pay for college tuition, retirement money, etc.

The source of much of this crap is always looking for new outlets to sell his crap. His crap was pushed off Ebay and then he found some new auction houses. Then he found local charities and local auctions. Then his buddy started to consign that crap to auctioneers all over the country. Everyone thought that things would greatly improve following "Operation Bullpen." That didn't last long. What is going on now is well beyond the "Operation Bullpen" numbers because now you have every Dick and Jane doing their kitchen-table forgeries knowing that the worse that will happen to them is that they get kicked off Ebay. And then you have certain sources of forgeries who seem to have been around forever.

Richard has been doing battle with the forgers longer than I have and it's a never-ending battle. We will win some battles, but we will never win the war because the majority of buyers of autographs are not the sharpest tools in the shed. These are people who are on the outer-circle of us. They will never find us because they aren't interested in finding us. They got their Mickey Mantle signed photo for $50.00 and they are happy until the day comes when they list it on Ebay for $400.00 and it gets removed. Then they will ask themselves "Why did it get removed, it came with a COA from a forensic person."

How does a guy like Chris Morales stay in business authenticating autographs? Buyers!!! Wanna-be collectors equate Chris Morales, Forensic Investigator to shows like NCIS.

How does a guy like Ted Taylor continue to authenticate autographs? Buyers!!!! Ted Taylor is a Philadelphia Athletics historian; he used to work for Fleer.

The other day I sent Ted Taylor the below email:

You're some Philadelphia Athletics historian, Ted.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=325589

How do you sleep at night, Ted? Tell me.

Christopher


All of this continues because of the BUYERS!!!! No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[David Atkatz]

Yeah! It's the buyers' fault!

(I also believe that "She deserved it! What did she expect, dressed like that?")

[RichardSimon]

P.T. Barnum is still alive and well.