Moral of story: don't sell an altered card. Sorry that I have to out a fellow member.

[Brian Van Horn]

Frank,

My apologies for my oversight.

[Rob D.]

Not sure what's more appalling: the (lack of) description or the $5.50 shipping.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Not sure what's more appalling: the (lack of) description or the $5.50 shipping.

At least he didn't raise his BP.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Based on the feedback of the current ebay listing's seller .... I'm shocked -- SHOCKED -- to learn that there's gambling going on in this establishment.

[JMANOS]

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

[Tcards-Please]

Why not show the PSA slip with the card or at a minimum state that it was submitted to PSA and they deemed it to be "ALTERED"? I'm not questioning your grading abilities, but it would be nice to state PSA's assessment.

That was the way it was first advertised on ebay, then by Brian on the BST.

r/
Frank

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by T's please

Why not show the PSA slip with the card or at a minimum state that it was submitted to PSA and they deemed it to be "ALTERED"? I'm not questioning your grading abilities, but it would be nice to state PSA's assessment.

That was the way it was first advertised on ebay, then by Brian on the BST.

r/
Frank

Um because that would impact potential profits?

[HercDriver]

I don't know Jmanos, but what if he's the world's greatest 1948 Leaf expert and his opinion is that it isn't altered? Why is some PSA dude presumed to be the expert over one of the board members?

I won a lot in REA a couple years ago that contained some T207s that the description said were trimmed. I sent them to SGC to round out a lot for one of their specials, just to get an "A" grade on them. They came back with some pretty nice grades, actually. So if I ever sell them, do I say they are SGC 50, but REA called them trimmed?

I guess my point is, somebody can think a card is trimmed and sell it to somebody who doesn't think it's trimmed...both guys thinking they got a good deal. It doesn't necessarily imply the 2nd guy is wrong in his assessment.

Just my two cents...

Take Care,
Geno

[vintagetoppsguy]

Agreed with Geno. Why does PSA have more merit than JMANOS?

After all, they're the same folks that graded this card a 10.



If that card doesn't tell you everything you need to know about PSA, then you're just drinking the Kool Aid!

[Tcards-Please]

Geno,

I wasn't questioning his personal opinion, but just saying that it would be nice to have full disclosure so that potential buyers have all the information and can make an informed decision.

r/
Frank

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I guess my point is, somebody can think a card is trimmed and sell it to somebody who doesn't think it's trimmed...both guys thinking they got a good deal. It doesn't necessarily imply the 2nd guy is wrong in his assessment.

Or that the first guy is wrong...

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by JMANOS

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

Your "opinion" flies directly in the face of third party (albeit subjective in itself but well established/documented) evidence, constructive board etiquette and general ethics.

Your lack of insight into your clearly deceptive tactics makes you a liability on this board (and to the hobby at large) as well as to anyone with whom you may conduct transactions.

~Christopher

Originally Posted by christopher.herman

Your "opinion" flies directly in the face of third party (albeit subjective in itself but well established/documented) evidence, constructive board etiquette and general ethics.

Your lack of insight into your clearly deceptive tactics makes you a liability on this board (and to the hobby at large) as well as to anyone with whom you may conduct transactions.

~Christopher

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Bought a M116 from TBOB just before Nationals last yr. He sold it as trimmed. Graded a SGC 6. I looked it over and seen nothing wrong and submitted it. Am I supposed to tell the buyer I bought it raw as trimmed but TPG said its a 6 now????


I have a T205 Lee FS on Ebay. I believe 100% that this card is a scrap card. Void of gold boarder, wavy right side, appearance of gold boarder on left side where other card joined the sheet, and it's trashed. I don't care what anyone else says. You can't see it in person, hold it, or loupe it over a screen. I have handled 1000's and 1000's of T205's and although I am no said expert I do know my 205's quite well. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. So if I sent to PSA and it came back Altered because the right side is cut with scissors and the left side appears to have gotten a full straight snip then am I supposed to believe them now. Stop making an issue because he is gonna make a profit off a card he bought. If he guarantees a refund on the card who cares. Making mountains out of ant hills IMO.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Andrew - To me and many other forum members who predate me, YOU are a newbie. So what's your point? Should I and other more long-standing members disregard YOUR opinion on that basis, or say that you have no right to state one? Is there something in the NET54 handbook regarding how long you are a newbie and thus must refrain from making such comments? Or is there an unwritten rules area like in baseball?

For the record, I feel that failure to disclose pertinent information constitutes a clear ethical lapse. Regardless of your opinion of PSA, their opinion is clearly relevant and the matter of who is the more qualified card evaluator (impossible to determine) is irrelevant.

Ken

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Bought a M116 from TBOB just before Nationals last yr. He sold it as trimmed. Graded a SGC 6. I looked it over and seen nothing wrong and submitted it. Am I supposed to tell the buyer I bought it raw as trimmed but TPG said its a 6 now????


I have a T205 Lee FS on Ebay. I believe 100% that this card is a scrap card. Void of gold boarder, wavy right side, appearance of gold boarder on left side where other card joined the sheet, and it's trashed. I don't care what anyone else says. You can't see it in person, hold it, or loupe it over a screen. I have handled 1000's and 1000's of T205's and although I am no said expert I do know my 205's quite well. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. So if I sent to PSA and it came back Altered because the right side is cut with scissors and the left side appears to have gotten a full straight snip then am I supposed to believe them now. Stop making an issue because he is gonna make a profit off a card he bought. If he guarantees a refund on the card who cares. Making mountains out of ant hills IMO.

Ethics 101.
Lesson 1: Principle of Full Disclosure.

"Newby" or not, I have bought, sold and traded with dozens of members here with (seemingly) honest results.

This thread has been very informative and eye-opening as to who shares my views. Thank you.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by JMANOS

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

Jim,

The card was submitted by a previous owner and was returned by PSA "Altered." This is not in the listing. When you purchased the card, I sent you the container with the card with the PSA Altered label.

[phikappapsi]

Seems pretty clear cut. The guy traded for an altered card here, threw away the evidence/TPG grade and is trying to turn it around for a profit without full disclosure.

Even if "your opinion" is that the card isn't trimmed, the unethical approach to trying to swing a quick buck is what appears to have most of the board more upset.

[calvindog]

Seems a bit fishy to me but I find that all resellers of PSA or SGC-determined trimmed cards always believe that the card was not trimmed when they resell it. Interesting.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Seems a bit fishy to me but I find that all resellers of PSA or SGC-determined trimmed cards always believe that the card was not trimmed when they resell it. Interesting.

PSA did not say the card was trimmed. They said it was altered. That could mean a number of things such as re-colored. If JMANOS is qualified (and by qualified I mean through years of experience) to determine that the card is not altered and TRULY BELIEVES that, then he has a right to sell it as he wishes.

Come on guys, these are the same folks that slabbed a laser copy of a Ty Cobb cut autograph as authentic. Some of our board experts determined that the cut was not authentic. So should Donovan have been allowed to still sell it even though PSA determined that it was authentic? In other words, why does PSA's opinion count on this card in question, but it doesn't count on the Ty Cobb autograph?

Keep drinking the Kool Aid, folks!

[Brian Van Horn]

Update at 7:39:30 EST this morning. It, however, does not mention the PSA label in the update:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-World-W...item1c2765bb4c

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Update at 7:39:30 EST this morning. It, however, does not mention the PSA label in the update:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-World-W...item1c2765bb4c

So If I purchase a PSA 5 (EX) graded card but I feel that card is in fact EX-MT and should have been graded a 6 (EX-MT) don't I have every right to crack the case and list the card as being in an EX-MT condition and price it according to a EX-MT grade? Would you expect me to detail and disclose in my auction that the card was originally graded a 5 by PSA?

[x2drich2000]

Taken by itself I don't see any problem with not disclosing that the card came back altered from PSA. The grade/determination assigned by PSA is their opinion. It is not fact. We have all heard of cases where PSA has deemed a card trimmed but upon resubmitting it has been graded numerically. Should a seller have to disclose if a card is resubmitted and receives a higher grade the 2nd time? The description indicates something is not right with the bottom border, so the buyer is aware. Furthermore, the seller also provides a 14 day return policy giving recourse if the buyer is not satisfied.

What does bother me though is looking at this card combined with the sellers overall feedback. Feedback percentage is 96.7% positive and most of the negative comments seem to be related to items not sent. To me that is concerning.

dj

[HRBAKER]

The card was sold twice, both times with the caveat that it was deemed "altered" by a recognized TPG. Even if the determination was made in his opinion that the assessment was wrong, it should have been mentioned bc it is material and then he should have said based on "ya ya ya" I disagree and do not believe that the card is altered but has an abnormal cut, etc. That's setting the bar at a fairly low level I think.

As a buyer, what would you want to know? And yes, TPGs make mistakes (often egregious) and he may be right about the card.

[Brian Van Horn]

Please note the bidder's history:

url]http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=120920062796&aid=t***o&eu=IH4Fi34W1yWswJ89IvUdKg8zeH4HIkKF&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink[/url]

If you can not view link, go to the original link and check the buyer's history:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...S:1123#vi-desc

[JasonD08]

While I rarely post on here.....I do read article here almost everyday. While I see a little bit of frustration on the poster's part, I think there are bigger fishes to fry. I have had 2 significant dealings with Manos years in the past and I found he was fair and honest. I have no ties to Jim nor have I spoke with him in atleast 5 years, but my opinion is that you need to educate yourself on the product that you are buying and if y ou are not sure perhaps you need to not purchase or bid. I am completely 100% for truth and forth comings, but to rail a long time member on this is not right. I know what is like to get falsely accused....(not that is really matter in life on a baseball card message board), but the train can derail fast. If you dont like it, then dont buy it. I am sure most here have disagreed with PSA assessments in the past and most if not all have resubmitted in hopes of higher grades. I see nothing wrong with the item description as long as it was there in the beginning. I thin Wonka (John) hit it on the head.


Jason
(long long time pre-Elliott board member if that's a big deal)

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

Just one question. You indicate you know what it is like to be falsely accused. The point is that I sold Jim the card with the "Altered" label. The label was not included in the listing and the word "altered" was added later after this thread was posted and the thread was posted after Jim was e-mailed via eBay to put the word "altered" in the listing. What is false? A material fact was left out of the listing and an eBay buyer with a rating over 200 has bought the card.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

One of the big problem I have with it is that Jim also sells graded cards, why doesn't he crack them out and apply his own grade to them? If he sold strictly raw I would have no problem with it. But he is picking and choosing when the TPGs are convenient for his profit making and if some gets misinformed tough luck.

At always amazing me with people that support questionable dealers and deals. Legendary keeps ticking with basically the same people minus the Mastro name,. What makes them any different than the past?

Lee

[tiger8mush]

And I think what makes this person different (than others on ebay who sell a possibly-altered card w/o mention of the possible alteration as it happens all the time) is that this one buys/sells on our b/s/t. Hits a little closer to home

[JasonD08]

Brian Van Horn


I didnt clarify too well. I am not saying that Jim was falsely accused. I just know when I had been, a trainwreck followed. I just simply was implying that it isn't right to railroad a veteran board member and drive this into the ground. As the auction description stands now, I have no problem with it.

Jason

[Brian Van Horn]

Jason,

For the most part I agree. The only concern I have now is whether the buyer is aware of the PSA decision on the card.

[JasonD08]

I am not defending him.....we all have the right to list and sell how we choose. If I do not like a seller's moral disposition or I find the item somewhat suspicious I just simply do not bid or avoid them altogether. Perhaps if everyone did the same, the message would be sent.........again buy beware. Kharma always has a way of showing up. I think personally this one hit close to home for Mr. Van Horn and he is upset about it. While I am all for raising awareness to rip offs on ebay and false information, again it is buy beware and the fact Jim put in the description that it may be altered, I have no problem with it. I am guessing that a few that responded here has had cards bumped in resubs, or cards even trimmed or altered in previous submissions resubmitted. I personally have had issues with 3rd party grading in the past.


Jason

[Tcards-Please]

Brian,

Appreciate you bringing this to light. This is probably the last thing you wanted to do, but even after giving him the opportunity to make it right, he still refused.

r/
Frank

[Jaybird]

not cool.