What pre-war guy do you feel should be in the HOF....I'll start with Jake Daubert

[Joe_G.]

I'm with John Dreker and SABRs 19th century committee, but for slightly different reasons than John writes about. In short, Deacon was the best catcher in the game during the 1870s, an era in which the catcher was considered the most important position in baseball. Team success relied on having a quality catcher more so than any other position including pitcher. The danger level was truly off the charts in 1870 with Deacon moving up to behind the batter when runners were on base (a tactic credited to Deacon) with virtually no protective gear, and dealing with increasingly fast pitch speeds (fast enough for effective curve balls etc.). To add to his catching skills, Deacon was feared at bat, either leading or among the leaders with frequency (BA, RBIs, etc.). Deacon was the gold standard during the 1870s, the stuff of legend, but his position did take a toll and he had to re-invent himself for the 2nd half of his career, moving to 3rd base. In his later years, all the way up to the end when he was the oldest player in baseball, he posted respectable numbers. Bill James even rated him as top 100 3rd basemen (76th). Unfortunately, I believe he was best remembered for his less impressive performance from 1880-1890 as opposed to his superstar status from the late 1860s-1879.

For more info on Deacon including display of all 9 poses in the Old Judge set, visit this older link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126514

[MacDice]

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by MacDice

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

Never understood that phrase at all. Did the person who first came up with it, or anybody else who parrots it, ever think it through.

Does the word "Fame" translate into a definition I'm not aware of?


Carl Mays and Hippo Vaughn's numbers are still better then Waite Hoyt's and several others in the Hall. Have their numbers gotten worse?

[oldjudge]

My friend Joe makes an excellent arguement for Deacon White. White was a .312 lifetime hitter and he had 988 RBIs in 1560 games. His RBI/game ratio is virtually the same as Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, and only slightly behind 19th century slugger Roger Connor. These hitting achievements are no small feat for a man whose hands were no doubt routinely swolen for a significant part of his career from catching bare handed.

[GaryPassamonte]

Ross Barnes. He was simply the best player in the NA and is the only player to hit over .400 four times in his career.
As I've said prior, we have a preoccupation with stats when evaluating players of the earliest era. These players can not be judged by the benchmarks accepted for later players. Many played prior to the arrival of professionalism and the rules were different. I believe the period assessments given to early players by their peers hold a lot of weight, also. Anson, Spalding, and the Wrights all put Barnes at or near the top of their list when asked to name the greatest players of their era. It doesn't get any better than that.

[tedzan]

I'm with you guys regarding Deacon White. Nevertheless, there appears to be times when who is selected for the HOF; and, who is not.....
is "arbitrary".

For example, Deacon's career .312 BA brings to mind Johnny Mize, who had an identical career .312 BA. Furthermore, Mize drove in 1337
Runs and scored 1118 Runs in 1884 games.
I am old enough to have seen Mize play (from 1947 - 1953), he was a tremendous clutch hitter with a lot of power. His #'s are impressive
and are better than quite a few who are in the HOF..........

100 - 138 RBI/year (8 seasons)

1337 = career RBI

.312 = BA

.562 = SLAvg

359 = HR

Yet, the HOF Committe overlooked Mize for many years. I never understood this....just as you guys can't understand what has prevented
Deacon White from being selected to the HOF.

Mize's vision was as keen as Ted Williams' vision. When Johnny hit 51 HR's in 1947, his K's were only 42. As far as power hitter's go, does
it get any better than that in Baseball......I don't think so ?

Yes, Johnny's in the HOF....but, he should have entered thru the "front door"; and, not via the Veteran's Committee in 1981.







TED Z

[glynparson]

does not mean greatest of the greats or best to ever play so i never really understood the its not the hall of very good argument. in fact that always seemed a little childish to me. I see Mr. Bergin beat me to this.

[triwak]

I second Ross Barnes!