What pre-war guy do you feel should be in the HOF....I'll start with Jake Daubert

[Bugsy]

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

[CMIZ5290]

I would vote for ed reulbach...had an incredible winning percentage and a lifetime era of just over 2.00

[D. Bergin]

I'm amazed by how little support Carl Mays ever had for getting into the HOF.

5 20-win seasons, Lifetime ERA under 3.00. On top of that he was a pretty good hitting pitcher, going a lifetime .268. Batted .343 in almost 150 AB's in 1921.

Seemed to have a superior career to team-mate Waite Hoyt who got in the HOF over 40 years ago.

I'm sure the Chapman incident and his personality doomed his chances.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

I agree completely. But I'd also like to see Wilbur Cooper get some attention.

[Chris-Counts]

Is it just my imagination, or are pre-war Hall of Fame debates more diplomatic than post-war Hall of Fame debates? I get the feeling that if we were talking about Luis Tiant, Tony Oliva and Minnie Minoso being in Cooperstown, there would already be a few comments complaining about how unworthy these candidates are — and how there's already too many players in the Hall of Fame. Personally, I say open the floodgates ...

As for pre-war players who are worthy, my list starts with Cecil Travis. Doesn't he have the third highest batting average ever for a shortstop? Isn't that enough to send him to Cooperstown? Some will argue he didn't play long enough, but while some other future HOFers (like Hal Newhouser and Lou Boudreau) were padding their stats against minor leaguers, he was busy fighting in the Battle of the Bulge ...

[T205Guy]

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

[ethicsprof]

cactus cravath.
THE home run king for a number of years before babe ruth redefined
everything. I think his name should be memorized by all little leaguers.
all the best,
barry

[Kenny Cole]

There is an argument for every name that has been thrown up thus far. However, notwithstanding the revamping of the veteran's committee so that the voters supposedly have more expertise on pre-1947 players then they did in the past, I'm not at all confident that they will ever elect any of the pre-1947 players.

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

If the committee actually does manage to perform its function (which would be akin to the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn), I suspect that the most likely candidate to be elected, as a player, is Dahlen. As best as I can tell, he was highly regarded at the time and statistically, his numbers are pretty compelling.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

Kenny, perhaps I'm reading the "new" rules incorrectly, but I believe the Vet's voting now is divided into 3 eras with 3 different committees: Pre-Integration (prior to 1947), Golden (1947-1972), and Expansion (1973-present). Each committee votes for ALL types of candidates from THAT era, including players, managers, executive/pioneers, and umpires. Torre and LaRussa will only be considered by the Expansion Era committee.

[Joe_G.]

I'm with John Dreker and SABRs 19th century committee, but for slightly different reasons than John writes about. In short, Deacon was the best catcher in the game during the 1870s, an era in which the catcher was considered the most important position in baseball. Team success relied on having a quality catcher more so than any other position including pitcher. The danger level was truly off the charts in 1870 with Deacon moving up to behind the batter when runners were on base (a tactic credited to Deacon) with virtually no protective gear, and dealing with increasingly fast pitch speeds (fast enough for effective curve balls etc.). To add to his catching skills, Deacon was feared at bat, either leading or among the leaders with frequency (BA, RBIs, etc.). Deacon was the gold standard during the 1870s, the stuff of legend, but his position did take a toll and he had to re-invent himself for the 2nd half of his career, moving to 3rd base. In his later years, all the way up to the end when he was the oldest player in baseball, he posted respectable numbers. Bill James even rated him as top 100 3rd basemen (76th). Unfortunately, I believe he was best remembered for his less impressive performance from 1880-1890 as opposed to his superstar status from the late 1860s-1879.

For more info on Deacon including display of all 9 poses in the Old Judge set, visit this older link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126514

[MacDice]

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by MacDice

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

Never understood that phrase at all. Did the person who first came up with it, or anybody else who parrots it, ever think it through.

Does the word "Fame" translate into a definition I'm not aware of?


Carl Mays and Hippo Vaughn's numbers are still better then Waite Hoyt's and several others in the Hall. Have their numbers gotten worse?

[oldjudge]

My friend Joe makes an excellent arguement for Deacon White. White was a .312 lifetime hitter and he had 988 RBIs in 1560 games. His RBI/game ratio is virtually the same as Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, and only slightly behind 19th century slugger Roger Connor. These hitting achievements are no small feat for a man whose hands were no doubt routinely swolen for a significant part of his career from catching bare handed.

[tedzan]

With a lifetime BA = .333 "Turkey" Donlin would have been a great candidate for the HOF had he taken his BB career more seriously. Instead of vaudville and the movies.






TED Z

[npa589]

Originally Posted by T205Guy

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

...along with Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Rogers Hornsby, Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Kiki Cuyler, Burleigh Grimes, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Fergie Jenkins, Lee Smith, Ryne Sandberg, and Dennis Eckersley.

[CMIZ5290]

Getting back to this guy, i have no clue why he's not in the hall. I believe his career record was 182-106 with an era of 2.24....makes no sense at all