Entombed in Plastic

[ScottFandango]

if you like raw cards so much, buy them raw!

you will certainly save money....its just seems cracking raw cards out that you bought is a waste of money, because a graded card clearly brings in more than a raw card...

think about your ESTATE PLAN....your family member who inherits your cards will be in a far worse situation trying to liquidate raw cards ...

dont want to call it selfish but....

[frankbmd]

I'm with you entirely, Scott, and have never cracked a slab except by accident. The only drawback with my large collection of 1000 slabs is weight (about 160 pounds).

PSA and SGC probably enjoy this thread laughing all the way to the bank. Slab, crack, slab, crack, slab, crack, etc. A perfect business model for them.

It looks like we are in the minority, but perhaps there are a lot of folks like me, who are reluctant to join the fray on a thread like this. We may just be part of a silent majority. Thanks for your sanity.

My estate plan is now complete with the purchase of a forklift to help my wife "move" my slabs. Hope she doesn't use it on me first.

No one's position on this sensitive issue is going to be changed by anything said here. Fortunately I have some raw cards as well, so I'll just go back to feeling my stack.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

if you like raw cards so much, buy them raw!

you will certainly save money....its just seems cracking raw cards out that you bought is a waste of money, because a graded card clearly brings in more than a raw card...

think about your ESTATE PLAN....your family member who inherits your cards will be in a far worse situation trying to liquidate raw cards ...

dont want to call it selfish but....

Although I am a firm believer in slabbing, I understand the point of those who collect raw cards (although I don't completely understand why they just don't let people collect what they want to collect and are so ferocious in their views). Many people have been collecting cards for a long, long time. They know cards and the hobby extremely well, and they love the hobby. However, the sentiment is that many of the new collectors do not love the hobby. They look at it as an investment or just for flipping, similar to stock market day traders. This drives up the price of the hobby and makes it worse overall. Grading companies, especially PSA, exacerbate. These new collectors do not see the card for the card, but only for the grade on the flip, almost like a stock that they are trading in their portfolio. That is why there is real resentment here. The second part is knowledge of cards. Similar to old time professions such as farming, old timers say that you have to get your hands dirty to gain knowledge of trade. You have to stick your hands in the dirt and feel the earth. People complain that they need TPG's to determine authenticity of cards, but long time hobbyists believe that you simply need to dedicate yourself to the cards more, and then you will be able to determine authenticity (and other alterations) for yourself. If you handle many raw cards, you will be able to feel the card stock and understand what authentic pre-war cards should feel like. That way, you will be able to judge for yourself (even better than graders!) if a card is genuine or not. Slabbed cards on the other hand, make the hobby more sterile. New collectors no longer have a chance to learn about cards as in the past and lose the knowledge and appreciation that comes with it.

[gorrister]

Originally Posted by glchen

Although I am a firm believer in slabbing, I understand the point of those who collect raw cards (although I don't completely understand why they just don't let people collect what they want to collect and are so ferocious in their views). Many people have been collecting cards for a long, long time. They know cards and the hobby extremely well, and they love the hobby. However, the sentiment is that many of the new collectors do not love the hobby. They look at it as an investment or just for flipping, similar to stock market day traders. This drives up the price of the hobby and makes it worse overall. Grading companies, especially PSA, exacerbate. These new collectors do not see the card for the card, but only for the grade on the flip, almost like a stock that they are trading in their portfolio. That is why there is real resentment here. The second part is knowledge of cards. Similar to old time professions such as farming, old timers say that you have to get your hands dirty to gain knowledge of trade. You have to stick your hands in the dirt and feel the earth. People complain that they need TPG's to determine authenticity of cards, but long time hobbyists believe that you simply need to dedicate yourself to the cards more, and then you will be able to determine authenticity (and other alterations) for yourself. If you handle many raw cards, you will be able to feel the card stock and understand what authentic pre-war cards should feel like. That way, you will be able to judge for yourself (even better than graders!) if a card is genuine or not. Slabbed cards on the other hand, make the hobby more sterile. New collectors no longer have a chance to learn about cards as in the past and lose the knowledge and appreciation that comes with it.

Fantastic post Gary. As for estate planning - I have IRA's, mutual funds, other assorted retirement accounts and life insurance to take care of my family when I'm gone. I am not going to depend on baseball cards to do that.

[rainier2004]

Gary - Dead on brother. I've been collecting cards for 30 years, I know what a card is worth irregardless of that stupid number on the flip. If there's a chance Ill resell I will not bust it out simply b/c it moves easier, thats just the way it is with all the guys collecting that have yet to get their hands dirty. I dislike slabs and smile every time I free a card...they are for kids!

Its amazing the difference in how many times Ive received a slabbed card and busted it open to be disappointed in what the scan/slab hide vs the raw card. Rarely am I disappointed in a raw card purchase via internet. Scott, calling us selfish is simply ignorant as you don't understand the reasoning of our collecting. I'll be damned if I ever spent 1-flippin cent on a TPG and thats ignorant as well but my personal beliefs are of higher priority and TPG's do not make me fell like a kid with cards. Its all about where you're coming from. So good for all those that appreciate slabs as well for those that love their raw cards...I love slabs too as they bust open!

[steve B]

And I thought I was the only one who is ambivalent about the whole slab/don't slab/crackout thing.

I have a few I've sent in, and a few I've bought. One I'm considering cracking out - SGC 10 for several obvious reasons. But them, I'm a bit lazy, so it'll probably stay slabbed till I need the space.

I do think the ones that are possibly very nice probably should be slabbed. I've done pretty well with the few I've sent in. The obviously VG ones really don't need much beyond a penny sleeve and toploader. (to me VGex is debatable, as are the really nice VGs like a few I've sent in) I'm fussier about postwar, I haven't sent any in yet, and the only ones I have graded came out of packs that way.

And I was around long enough when most dealers had stacks of cards just loose and rubberbanded, handling the cards raw is pretty cool, and is the best way to learn.

Slab, don't slab, bust 'em out --It's all ok with me.

Steve B

Originally Posted by glchen

Although I am a firm believer in slabbing, I understand the point of those who collect raw cards (although I don't completely understand why they just don't let people collect what they want to collect and are so ferocious in their views). Many people have been collecting cards for a long, long time. They know cards and the hobby extremely well, and they love the hobby. However, the sentiment is that many of the new collectors do not love the hobby. They look at it as an investment or just for flipping, similar to stock market day traders. This drives up the price of the hobby and makes it worse overall. Grading companies, especially PSA, exacerbate. These new collectors do not see the card for the card, but only for the grade on the flip, almost like a stock that they are trading in their portfolio. That is why there is real resentment here. The second part is knowledge of cards. Similar to old time professions such as farming, old timers say that you have to get your hands dirty to gain knowledge of trade. You have to stick your hands in the dirt and feel the earth. People complain that they need TPG's to determine authenticity of cards, but long time hobbyists believe that you simply need to dedicate yourself to the cards more, and then you will be able to determine authenticity (and other alterations) for yourself. If you handle many raw cards, you will be able to feel the card stock and understand what authentic pre-war cards should feel like. That way, you will be able to judge for yourself (even better than graders!) if a card is genuine or not. Slabbed cards on the other hand, make the hobby more sterile. New collectors no longer have a chance to learn about cards as in the past and lose the knowledge and appreciation that comes with it.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by steve B

And I thought I was the only one who is ambivalent about the whole slab/don't slab/crackout thing.

Slab, don't slab, bust 'em out --It's all ok with me.

+1

Do what makes sense for your collecting style. I prefer the lower/mid condition raw stuff, however with the higher valued cards, beaters or not I prefer the look and "security" of a slabbed card.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

if you like raw cards so much, buy them raw!

you will certainly save money....its just seems cracking raw cards out that you bought is a waste of money, because a graded card clearly brings in more than a raw card...

A graded 1 or 2 often costs no more than a raw one. Given that, buy and crack. And your whole concept of the estate plan goes out the window if it isn't worth more.

[ScottFandango]

im not a flipper, only sold a few modern cards over the years...

also, you dont seem to realize how the hobby has changed over the last 30 years....as cards have become worth more and more, there has been an influx of more dirt bags trying to scam people....the TPGs protect people from dirtbags....

if the cards didnt escalate in value over the years, then we woulnt need TPG...but, since we know that big bucks are spent on cards, its important to have a third party leveling the playing field....

when i see a nice card not slabbed, i am not willing to pay up for that card because of the risk of it being trimmed, altered. etc...

so i simply wanted to make the point that if you deslab your cards, your are hurting their value because most buyers like myself will be hesistant to buy raw...JUST LIKE YOU BOUGHT THE CARD GRADED FOR PIECE OF MIND....you may KNOW its authentic and not trimmed after you deslab it, but what about the next owner or the potential buyer? they will not be so sure of its authenticty as the person who deslabbed it!

most importantly, in-person transactions are rare these days, so we have to rely on scans online or from an auction book, so the old timers cant touch and feel to check for authenticity...another reason to keep things slabbed.

how many raw cards does REA have up for auction? nuf said

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

how many raw cards does REA have up for auction? nuf said

well over a thousand.....

[ScottFandango]

i dont have mine in front of me...

how many raw cards does REA have in the first 100 pages??

zero?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

i dont have mine in front of me...

how many raw cards does REA have in the first 100 pages??

zero?

That wasn't the question.

[Tomman1961]

My T206 Cobb (red) is driving me crazy. My all-time favorite card. But he is slabbed in plastic. I have the card-----that's great. But I have never touched it. Something wrong about that. I bet some day I crack it and get the full satisfaction of owning it and actually touching it.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

im not a flipper, only sold a few modern cards over the years...

also, you dont seem to realize how the hobby has changed over the last 30 years....as cards have become worth more and more, there has been an influx of more dirt bags trying to scam people....the TPGs protect people from dirtbags....

if the cards didnt escalate in value over the years, then we woulnt need TPG...but, since we know that big bucks are spent on cards, its important to have a third party leveling the playing field....

when i see a nice card not slabbed, i am not willing to pay up for that card because of the risk of it being trimmed, altered. etc...

so i simply wanted to make the point that if you deslab your cards, your are hurting their value because most buyers like myself will be hesistant to buy raw...JUST LIKE YOU BOUGHT THE CARD GRADED FOR PIECE OF MIND....you may KNOW its authentic and not trimmed after you deslab it, but what about the next owner or the potential buyer? they will not be so sure of its authenticty as the person who deslabbed it!

most importantly, in-person transactions are rare these days, so we have to rely on scans online or from an auction book, so the old timers cant touch and feel to check for authenticity...another reason to keep things slabbed.

how many raw cards does REA have up for auction? nuf said

Scott,

I didn't mean to imply that you were a flipper. And as I have said before, I believe in slabbing, and practically all of my prewar cards have been slabbed by PSA, SGC, or BVG. I was just trying to explain that there was another side to the argument, which I understand. It's just another one of those things where reasonable people will just have agree that there are reasonable differing opinions out there.

[Leon]

I should add that even though I think there are a ton of raw cards in the hobby, and even some valuable raw ones, I do agree with what Scott F. is saying. It is also the reason I have almost 100% of my higher valued cards in holders. Just my opinion but I think de-slabbing an expensive card is not wise. (for the reasons Scott and others have stated). Even though I am argumentative and play devil's advocate I try to be fair in my arguing.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

if the cards didnt escalate in value over the years, then we woulnt need TPG...but, since we know that big bucks are spent on cards, its important to have a third party leveling the playing field....

Most of the price escalation has been in the mint category. My Dad bought me a 1968 Topps Mantle for my 8th birthday, That was 1988. It was in fair condition, he paid 60 dollars... Guess what that card is worth today? Of course the price has "escalated" because slabbed mint examples have sold for thousands of dollars right?

Its a really good thing TPGs are around to keep the value of mint cards high. Just don't crack the plastic or you'll lose the value... CRAZY AS F***!

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Most of the price escalation has been in the mint category. My Dad bought me a 1968 Topps Mantle for my 8th birthday, That was 1988. It was in fair condition, he paid 60 dollars... Guess what that card is worth today? Of course the price has "escalated" because slabbed mint examples have sold for thousands of dollars right?

Its a really good thing TPGs are around to keep the value of mint cards high. Just don't crack the plastic or you'll lose the value... CRAZY AS F***!

totally disagree...

there are hardly any prewar mint cards to begin with so this argument holds no water...

the rarity of a card mainly determines its valuation...actually the more times a specific card is found in mint, the less it is worth...

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

totally disagree...

there are hardly any prewar mint cards to begin with so this argument holds no water...

the rarity of a card mainly determines its valuation...actually the more times a specific card is found in mint, the less it is worth...

If the rarity of a card determines its valuation then no value should be lost by cracking a slab.

Rarity value is simply supply and demand, but thats not what you are referring to in any of your posts.

successfully cracking and re-subbing a card for a higher grade actually makes the same card worth more money. That is so crazy to me. TPGs have added phantom value to cards, coins and currency. Just a fact

[steve B]

I wouldn't call more value for nicer examples a phantom value. It's been that way in nearly every collecting hobby for a very long time.

Being able to quantify it and make money from that is somwhat new, but hardly something that began with TPG in any field.

And cards are primarily a demand market. Otherwise the Wagner wouldn't even be close to the most valuable card. I'm not even sure it would make the top 500.

What grading has done is to bring in a group of people who have a good deal of money, but not necessarily the time to learn all the nuances of a wide range of cards. With TPG they can feel comfortable buying certain cards without the suspicion of alterations and fakes. And that has raised values on the popular sets well beyond what they would be otherwise.
Many of the less popular/less well known sets especially postwar are actually the same or lower than they were several years ago.

Not saying that's good or bad just that it is.
Not saying those same people don't understand the history or the baseball.



And the anti-slab crowd will perhaps be happy to note that slabs while still available for stamps have largely failed to succeed. Certificates which have been around for long time (Maybe a century or more? they were preceeded by expertising marks) can now have a grade included, and that's becoming more popular.

Steve B

Steve B

Originally Posted by Matthew H

If the rarity of a card determines its valuation then no value should be lost by cracking a slab.

Rarity value is simply supply and demand, but thats not what you are referring to in any of your posts.

successfully cracking and re-subbing a card for a higher grade actually makes the same card worth more money. That is so crazy to me. TPGs have added phantom value to cards, coins and currency. Just a fact