What's an autograph, anyway?

[mighty bombjack]

I'm sure many of you saw this Addie Joss postcard in the last oldjudge auction. Here is an example (if authentic) of a player writing his last name in reference to his son. In any way an autograph?

http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/auto...ost-cards/235/

[David Atkatz]

I don't mean to sound too harsh, but have you been listening? "Autograph" is not synonymous with "signature."

Yes, the postcard is an autograph of Joss.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I don't mean to sound too harsh, but have you been listening? "Autograph" is not synonymous with "signature."

Yes, the postcard is an autograph of Joss.

Wow, I never saw this auction. This is absolutely the real deal. Fulton St. was Addie Joss' residence in Toledo in 1907. What a scarce and tremendous piece! Thanks for posting this...

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Wow, I never saw this auction. This is absolutely the real deal. Fulton St. was Addie Joss' residence in Toledo in 1907. What a scarce and tremendous piece! Thanks for posting this...

Yeah, I thought about going after it, but had no idea it would break 10K.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I don't mean to sound too harsh, but have you been listening? "Autograph" is not synonymous with "signature."

Yes, the postcard is an autograph of Joss.

You don't sound harsh. However, I am more interested in opinions, a la what someone who collects would accept in their collection.

I do have to ask, by your standard, anything written in someone's hand is their autograph? They don't even have to write their name?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

You don't sound harsh. However, I am more interested in opinions, a la what someone who collects would accept in their collection.

I do have to ask, by your standard, anything written in someone's hand is their autograph? They don't even have to write their name?

In my view, any form of someone writing their name could be seen as an autograph. It could be block letters, script... Whatever. The key is they are identifying themselves.

The Joss item in my view is not an autograph. Writing someone else's name -- even if part of it coincides with your own -- is not an autograph IMO.

I would gladly take the joss item to own his writing, but I don't think I could fool myself into thinking it was his autograph.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

In my view, any form of someone writing their name could be seen as an autograph. It could be block letters, script... Whatever. The key is they are identifying themselves.

The Joss item in my view is not an autograph. Writing someone else's name -- even if part of it coincides with your own -- is not an autograph IMO.

I would gladly take the joss item to own his writing, but I don't think I could fool myself into thinking it was his autograph.

I think a lot of people agree with you.

I wish I had the photo, but there was an auction a few years ago that had a note from Tris Speaker to his wife. He didn't sign it, but he did write "Mrs. Tris Speaker" on the verso so that a messenger knew the intended receiver. The script looked like any Speaker auto I've ever seen (he had beautiful penmanship), but that little "Mrs." in front of it made me contemplate whether this was an autograph or not. He was not technically writing his own name, but if someone were to make a simple cut, there would be no way to know that.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

The Joss item in my view is not an autograph. Writing someone else's name -- even if part of it coincides with your own -- is not an autograph IMO.

I'll try again. The long-accepted definition of autograph is not simply a person's signature. The Joss is technically an A.D.--an Autograph Document, and would be advertised as such in a professional historical autograph dealer's catalog. It is a document written in Joss' hand. If he had signed his name on it as well, it would be an A.D.S.--an Autograph Document Signed. You, personally, may not want an A.D. in your collection, preferring something containing a signature, but the postcard is an autograph nonetheless.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I'll try again. The long-accepted definition of autograph is not simply a person's signature. The Joss is technically an A.D.--an Autograph Document, and would be advertised as such in a professional historical autograph dealer's catalog. It is a document written in Joss' hand. If he had signed his name on it as well, it would be an A.D.S.--an Autograph Document Signed. You. personally may not want an A.D. in your collection, preferring something containing a signature, but the postcard is an autograph nonetheless.

It seems that autograph=handwriting, no?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I do have to ask, by your standard, anything written in someone's hand is their autograph? They don't even have to write their name?

None of what I posted is "my view." They are the long-accepted (probably 200 years or so) standards of autograph dealers and collectors.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

None of what I posted is "my view." They are the long-accepted (probably 200 years or so) standards of autograph dealers and collectors.

Yet there are many thing you have listed that many (most?) autograph collectors wouldn't collect. I guess we should call ourselves signature collectors?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Yet there are many thing you have listed that many (most?) autograph collectors wouldn't collect.

What? Most historical autograph dealers--and there have been quite a few famous ones in the last 150 years--did not, and do not, consider sports autograph collecting, or the collecting of signatures of "celebrities" to be autograph collecting at all.

During WWII, a particular A.M. (Autograph Manuscript--no signature) sold for more than $1 million. It was a copy of the Gettysburg Address, in Lincoln's hand.

Would you want a copy of Lou Gehrig's farewell speech, in his own hand, in your autograph collection? Or would you feel it didn't belong there because it wasn't signed?

[thenavarro]

I agree with what David has posted concerning what an autograph is. He's right on the mark.

Mike

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

What? Most historical autograph dealers--and there have been quite a few famous ones in the last 150 years--did not, and do not, consider sports autograph collecting, or the collecting of signatures of "celebrities" to be autograph collecting at all.

During WWII, a particular A.M. (Autograph Manuscript--no signature) sold for more than $1 million. It was a copy of the Gettysburg Address, in Lincoln's hand.

Would you want a copy of Lou Gehrig's farewell speech, in his own hand, in your autograph collection? Or would you feel it didn't belong there because it wasn't signed?

Wow, those are some haughty examples. Do they demonstrate a rule, or are they very rare exceptions?

Let's go the other direction. Phil Niekro signatures sell every day on ebay. I've never seen an A.D. of his sell. Is that because they are rare, or because nobody wants them?