The Show at The Oaks in Philly- a Disaster!

[x2drich2000]

Let me start off by saying, I want this show to thrive. I really like going to shows, but something has to be done or this show won't survive.

Obviously, as Dan pointed out, the costs to set up at a show go beyond just the table costs. From a dealer's prospective, these costs need to be made up somewhere. Therefore, I think it should be expected that you will pay a bit more at a show then online. At the same time, double or triple the price just seems outrageous

I appreciate that Marco spent $7000+ on advertising for the show. That's quite a bit of money and at least shows some dedication to making the show work. However, it seems to me based on my own observations, and the comments by others, that the advertising was not effective and this was money not well spent. Personally, I know very few people who still get newspapers. Billboards are limited to who is traveling on that particular road. In addition, Billboards do not focus on a specific demographic. Card collecting is a much pretty specific niche of the community. There is by far a much larger population that would be interested in a baby/toddler show. Therefore, the advertising I believe needs to be targeted more to our limited population.

So if you were a show promoter today, what kind of advertising would you do to make a newer show such as Oaks successful?

dj

[Leon]

I haven't seen a poor point made yet, all good points. Not sure where to start but I guess with the costs. Dan's $700 is profit he would have to make before breaking even financially (forget about time served, that is actually a positive). If we figure 15%-20% profit then he would have to do around 3500-4000 in sales. I can only speak for myself but the last show at Oaks I did, I did a bit more than that. I also price my stuff fairly (I believe). If I get a great deal I try to make up for bad deals. At the end of the day, 15% profit is probably where I end up. I love going to shows and would also pay a bit more at a show,......say, maybe 15% or so. ......the dealers I usually see have their stuff priced the way others have already vented about. It's crazy. I probably am not going to pay a ton more....a little yes, a ton, no. I also agree with the advertising. If no one saw it then there are probably better ways to spend the money. Marco did advertise on this board (it was appreciated) and I am sure many have seen the ads. I don't have a silver bullet but I remain committed to doing the Oaks show and will try even harder to make the next one. I thoroughly enjoyed it the last times I did it. Also, with airfare and hotel my expenses are considerably more but that is the way it is when you live in a city with no good vintage shows. You either travel or you don't do them. Hanging out with lots of my friends is more than a collector could ask for, in itself. See you guys next time...

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

So if you were a show promoter today, what kind of advertising would you do to make a newer show such as Oaks successful?

dj

Get the email address of every person that walks into every show you do. Get the email address of every person that buys an autograph from you, whether in person, by mail, by phone, by internet. Send several emails prior to every show you do to the entire list. How much would that cost? Then, whatever actual cash you spend, put every dollar into online promotion, including everything like Net54 you can find. Newspapers and billboards, are you kidding me? I would have laughed at that ten years ago. I harangued Marco for years to do the email thing, but finally gave up. I don't think he's ever done it to this day. Now, he does get a good crowd to Chantilly, and to the Edison show, so he's doing something right there. But 90+% of the crowds at those shows are there strictly for the signing guests, so the vintage dealers are always depending on the few actual collectors who do manage to become aware of the show (probably from word of mouth or just knowing about when the shows are held usually.) Marco's a buddy, and I love doing his shows, but us dealers for years have been mere window dressing to the real action going on behind the scenes, and at some point he's going to lose the window dressing and it will be a big autograph event only. Maybe enough shiny stuff and autograph supplies guys will survive to provide the appearance of a "card and memorabilia show," but it will not be a show in the old sense any more.
As for the mystery of how the dealers who price their stuff beyond all reasoning manage to survive, I can't imagine. I do know that to cover expenses, pay for inventory, and end up with something for my time and effort, I need to actually SELL STUFF, so I try to price accordingly. That's half the game of being a dealer, knowing what the market will bear. How can these guys keep doing shows? How do they last charging 2 or 3X what any idiot can see from the net is the going price? I don't get it, but I'm guessing they won't be around much longer. Unfortunately, they and the other forces perhaps beyond our control will take the shows with them. But, hey, let's enjoy them while we can!

[spacktrack]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Get the email address of every person that walks into every show you do. Get the email address of every person that buys an autograph from you, whether in person, by mail, by phone, by internet. Send several emails prior to every show you do to the entire list.

Agreed, that's probably one of the easiest ways to market the show. Spend some of the money that goes to billboards and newspaper ads and buy a few marquee door prizes that make people really want to volunteer their information. Hand out a door prize form to everyone when they buy their ticket. Most of the people will fill it out as they wait in line. Sure, not everyone will fill it out but at the end of the show, gather all the submitted entries and log them into a document to use going forward. Between Chantilly, Edison, and Oaks, there would probably be a pretty good list built. You can send e-mail reminders and/or mail postcards to the people on your list leading up to the show. Maybe include a coupon in the email/postcard for discounted admission so that 1) people are rewarded for their loyalty to the show and 2) you can gauge the effectiveness and repeat business coming back to the show.

Also, encourage the dealers to share some of the responsibility and promote to their customers via email or some other method. Ted and Dan did a good job informing the board, and I know there were people who only found out about the show from their posts.

Another thing that absolutely needs to be worked on is the CSA website. If your computer blocks flash, the hours of the Oaks show were nowhere to be found on the site. The dealer list was also not updated and at least seven dealers that I know personally were listed as exhibitors and not set up. Spending money on billboards and newspaper ads is all well and good, but if the website, which is the main portal to a lot of hobbyists, isn't updated, it can come across as a lack of enthusiasm about the show. I don't live in the PA area, so I'll never see any of the ads they run, but I do check the website, and it was pretty frustrating trying to get information.

I want the show to thrive as it's in a good area and strong shows are always needed. It won't be overnight, but there's a lot of potential if harnessed in the right way.

[ArchStanton]

I wish I could have made it to the show, but there was no way the four-hour drive could fit into my schedule right now. If the local guys are interested, there is a gun show at the same place this weekend. If it is anything like the last one they held, you will have trouble finding parking. They had to extend the hours of their last show due to the number of people trying to get in.

I think the difference in attendance between the types shows is almost solely a factor of the current market. Can the local guys give any input here? Has anyone noticed a difference in local advertising for the two shows? I think having them on back-to-back weekends provides a good comparison. I would love to see a successful card show in Philly. If Marco keeps trying, I will make every effort to make sure I am at the next one.

[mintacular]

Sorry this show didn't work out for many of the dealers...I do think one should remember that even if you didn't turn a profit at this show if you had a few positive transactions with buyers you might see them again. So while you may have only sold them a $10 beater T206 common this time perhaps in a couple years that same guy will remember you and buy a $1000 Matty or whatever the next time...

I still think shows offer an advantage to buyers that the internet cannot that being holding/seeing a card in person. While I generally don't buy "big" stars at shows due to overpricing, I do find it cost-efficient to buy commons to fill sets....

Last point, I think high gas $'s right now for these types of shows. For example I almost went to Cleveland's Strongville Show (from Pgh) a few weeks ago but then thought it will cost me $75+ in gas so I shelved the idea. I'm sure this is true with other collectors who would've normally made a couple/few hour drive to Philly but gas $'s made this decision more difficult

[DJR]

.

[Rich Klein]

I agree 100 percent; there is no reason that internet is a great way to go. Inexpensive as you are already paying for your web site....

Make sure on the CSA web site (if there is an easy way to people to join your mailing list. I just went to the CSA web site, and in a word, it was a terrible site.

Roger Neufeldt sends out postcards every time he does either a show or his one-man shows in the DFW area. Those postcards are a small cost out of pocket to bring in people just to see him. I guarantee you that investment is well worth the cost for him.

One of the other issues with the hobby today, is that we do not really have central points as we did 20 years ago. There is little doubt that Beckett and F&W (Krause( are not what they were in 1992. In those days, they were the central points to get out news about the hobby. Now, there is more information available but less structure as to how to get the news out. But there are always people who want to go that don't know and find out by accident.

Shoot, in 1984, before the Parsappany National, there were actually quite a few collectors I remember meeting in North Jersey who had no idea the event would be taking place. And these were people who liked cards and were interested at the time.

Dan brought up a good point as to why prices seem to be "museum" like, when you figure out your out of pocket costs before you sell a card. there has to be some profit factor brought in. The issue becomes, the profit factor versus what people can now find on line similar cards to.

And let's face it, shows are not what thwy were as many of us don't see the need to go out anymore. Instead we sit at home and buy/sell/trade cards. But without decent shows and stores, I always worry about where the newer collectors will find us

Rich

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by ArchStanton

I wish I could have made it to the show, but there was no way the four-hour drive could fit into my schedule right now. If the local guys are interested, there is a gun show at the same place this weekend. If it is anything like the last one they held, you will have trouble finding parking. They had to extend the hours of their last show due to the number of people trying to get in.

Gun shows are smoking these days. I remember doing the Hunt show a few years back and there was a gun show on the top floor. It was jammed. I wondered if I was in the wrong business. Maybe it would help sales at shows if we spread a rumor that Obama is going to ban baseball cards.

[7nohitter]

As a low-mid level collector (by the standards on these boards) I am NOT going to go to a show like this, and here's why:

1) Why look at a $700 price tag on a card when I KNOW I can get the card on the 'bay for at MOST half of that...

2) Why walk around a table, only to be given poor (at best) service by the guy who had to get up to answer my questions

3) For what I'd pay in gas I could buy a decent 206 to add to my collection.

Now, that aside, I MISS the discussions with the guys (like on this forum) who sell at these shows...unfortunately, the good guys are FAR outnumbered by the AS&SHOLES at these shows...

[skelly]

I have to think the customer base is still there, it just needs to get some momentum back. I used to go to the Show when it was in Reading. It was an awesome show. My buddies who aren't even really collectors loved to go and look at the stuff with me, etc.. Honestly, I think that the Hunt show falling apart has also hurt this show as for better or worse, some collectors are going to lump them together. The bottom line is that the empty tables just kill it for me. It's like going to a football game, and you walk in and no one is sitting anywhere but between the thirty yard line.... You drive all the way down to the show, and you walk in, its dead, and your like what is wrong with me for driving all the way down ( and your wife who comes with you wonders the same )... I would still go despite the fact the prices are high, if I really felt there was going to be a lot of stuff to look at, etc...

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

As a low-mid level collector (by the standards on these boards) I am NOT going to go to a show like this, and here's why:

1) Why look at a $700 price tag on a card when I KNOW I can get the card on the 'bay for at MOST half of that...

2) Why walk around a table, only to be given poor (at best) service by the guy who had to get up to answer my questions

3) For what I'd pay in gas I could buy a decent 206 to add to my collection.

Now, that aside, I MISS the discussions with the guys (like on this forum) who sell at these shows...unfortunately, the good guys are FAR outnumbered by the AS&SHOLES at these shows...

There’s a flipside to this way of thinking….as a collector/part time seller.

For every good customer there are far more as you say A$$hole customers who want nothing more than to ask to buy fair priced cards for half price and are upset when sellers won’t sell at requested prices.

The problem is that most people who attend these shows are looking for deals and I don’t mean reasonable deals I mean steals. I’ve set up now at three of these to sell off some of my extras I see it time and time again. Some guy walks up to a table asks to see some cards asks me what I want and I give a fair inline ebay avg. price and I get offered half. Why would I sell an EX graded card that is going every day on eBay say for $80 for $45?

I say no then they get bent out of shape. Like I have a case full of graded baseball cards at a baseball card show and have no rough idea of value really?

I agree there are crazy prices on some dealer’s stuff I just don’t buy from them. However this is no different than eBay good god look at all the same cards that pop up each week with BIN’s that are 1500% more than current retail value.

If you are going to these shows with hopes it will be like the shows in the old days where you expect to find cards for half off or super sweet deals you’re wasting your time. The same would be said for hitting antique malls with the hopes of finding a Wagner card shoved in a case being sold by some hermit that’s lived in a hole for the past 30 years, it’s not going to happen. People know what they have.

You will find two prices at shows today, overpriced and retail.

Yes you can do the same by hitting eBay but much more can come of shows. One sometimes there are goods at shows that don’t hit eBay I spent about 10k at Oaks on stuff a guy had I didn’t even know about. Second meeting people is nice and sometimes you get to hold and see cards that you only see in pictures on eBay.

There is something to be said for holding a Wagner T206 or seeing a super obscure regional issue up close and personal as well as meeting the other collectors who call this hobby home.

Long live the local card show!

Cheers,

John