A Very interesting auction

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

Sounds to me like they're just letting you know that if you buy this ball and PSA rejects it later, dont come to them for a refund cause they warned you up front it had already been rejected by them.

they couldnt come for a refund anyway, because neither jsa or psa guarantees their opinion, and no one signed a contract saying that refunds will be paid out if psa or jsa rejects an item. is psa and jsa kings and we are peasants that we are bound to their opinions? Two guys are running the entire show and we are at their mercy?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they couldnt come for a refund anyway, because neither jsa or psa guarantees their opinion, and no one signed a contract saying that refunds will be paid out if psa or jsa rejects an item. is psa and jsa kings and we are peasants that we are bound to their opinions? Two guys are running the entire show and we are at their mercy?

He's talking about coming to SCP for the refund (I believe).

I guess I can stand with Richard and commend them for being honest, but it does raise the question of whose opinion needs to be included. It seems to be almost standard practice for major auction houses to have both JSA and PSA/DNA cents (or pre-certs or whatever else they do/call them now). So when they have one, do they feel the need to at least reference the other now, so as to deflect future problems? Like, if you're gonna flip this on eBay, you're fine because it has JSA, but not if you try Heritage, cuz PSA aint gonna pre-cert it?

Wonder what would happen if this ball hit Leland's?

[RichardSimon]

We had a poll here a while ago and the vote was overwhelming that in a question of who should issue a refund in the event an autograph is not authentic, and has been issued a COA. The group voted that the dealer is responsible for refunding the money.
Travis and I have pointed out many things that are wrong with TPA's. But even I don't think they should be held financially responsible for an error, except in the most egregious circumstances. To me a mistake like the Cobb cut and the Delehanty letter are egregious mistakes.
I know I keep pounding on that Delehanty letter, but geez did PSA and JSA actually think the guy misspelled his own name??

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

We had a poll here a while ago and the vote was overwhelming that in a question of who should issue a refund in the event an autograph is not authentic, and has been issued a COA. The group voted that the dealer is responsible for refunding the money.
Travis and I have pointed out many things that are wrong with TPA's. But even I don't think they should be held financially responsible for an error, except in the most egregious circumstances. To me a mistake like the Cobb cut and the Delehanty letter are egregious mistakes.
I know I keep pounding on that Delehanty letter, but geez did PSA and JSA actually think the guy misspelled his own name??

So would you call on them to insure the $30,000 selling price? If they both authenticated it, should they split the payment, or each pay that amount? And to whom, exactly? Or should they just refund the authentication price (which is like 200 bucks, plus shipping and all that)? But what, then, if the letter has changed hands a bunch of times since the original submission?

I think we'll agree that, in the end, the dealer/auction house is on the line. It is they who choose to use TPAs or not. The problem from their standpoint is, buyers want them, so they currently add to hammer prices. Hunt doesn't generally use them (from what I've seen), and I've passed on some items that I thought questionable there. Leland's doesn't either, and I've found them to be above reproach (never purchased from them, but have had wishlists in the past).

[RichardSimon]

Not sure how I would handle that $30K letter now that you point that out.
What happened there to me is a horror, should never have happened. I wonder about the motivation of the TPA's when something like that happens.
I have authenticated for auction houses, I know what goes on in authenticating sessions. I am not accusing anyone but as I explained here in an old thread, pressure was applied to me and the members of my authentication team by one particular auction house, American Memorabilia. I did work for several other auction houses and none of them applied any pressure.
And Leland's does not use TPA's because Josh and Mike Hefner are as good or better than the TPA's we are discussing.
Not sure about what Hunt usually does as they were the ones who sold the Delehanty letter for $30K, with COA's from JSA and PSA. I think they use TPA's for certain items or for their major auction, but correct me if I am wrong there.

[Big Dave]

Ebay made PSA and JSA relevant in regard to autographs. Without eBay, they wouldn't matter at all.

[travrosty]

The guarantee would just be spelled out in exact terms, the company would be on the hook for their mistakes. they should have to pay up when they screw up.

i have all the details and specifics that would make for a good guarantee policy but these companies arent going to do it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Ebay made PSA and JSA relevant in regard to autographs. Without eBay, they wouldn't matter at all.

auction houses started the craze when mastro would bring dealers and people around at shows and so forth and tell them he wanted them to meet his guy spence. and then grad came through the mastro pipeline too.

it was a way for auction houses to push more and more material through and absolve themselves from the liability of the autographs by pushing these tpa's on people. even though though the tpa's put it in their fine print that they aren't liable either, thats its just their opinion that can change without notice and without and renumeration or warranty to the buyer.

but auction houses still play the game of making it look like there is some type of guarantee, like when heritage will put in its tagline.

"encapsulated by psa/dna for unquestioned authenticity."

that makes it sound like it is guaranteed to be real, you cant even question it.



the auctions started it and the online auctions like ebay just ran with it from there.