More T205 stuff....the "ELUSIVE 20"....and more

[tedzan]

Based on the bios on the backs of these Minor Leaguer's (ML)....Adkins, Cady, Jimmy Collins, Dunn, Frick, Hanford, McAllister and Nee....it's fair to conclude
that American Lithographic (ALC) printed all twelve ML cards in one of their later 1911 press runs.

Joshua (post #4 here) has suggested that the 12 - ML cards could have replaced a group of 12 - Major Leaguer's (printed on an earlier sheet). This is very
plausible....which would have then rendered these twelve Major Leaguer's as Short-Prints (SP).

But, which twelve SP Major Leaguer's were replaced is a good question.

Furthermore, regarding this late 1911 press run, if I recall their bios correctly, I'd include Donohue, Rowan, and Joss (for starters) on this sheet with the ML
cards. Given some more thought to this, we should be able to come up with some more SP cards in this late press run.


ALC started their Gold-Bordered Tobacco card design in the Spring of 1911 with their T80 (Military Series), T42 (Birds)....and subsequently, the T205 cards.
Perhaps, the designs of the twelve ML cards were created by the same artist(s) that drew up the T80's.


T80






TED Z

I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+ cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards.

Any thoughts on this?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+ cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards.

Any thoughts on this?

Andrew

Interesting theory and you'll be happy to hear of the T43 Gold-Bordered Bird set of 30 cards (pardon me for forgetting this one)....so your total is exactly 400 subjects.


But, the T80 cards were printed in Feb. 1911, and have T206-like Tobacco advertising backs....LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT (and very rarely OLD MILL & CAIRO MONOPOL).







TED Z

Yes but you have to remember the break up of the ATC. This alone could have caused this small anomaly. Mecca didn't arrive till 1912. Lenox,Tolstoi, and Uzit were very short run cards anyways. If they had a fulfillment order it would make sense to dump them on a small set run and use the same plates instead of a redesign. I do believe that in the next few moths to a yr using T80, T42, T43, and the T205 set we will be able to compile a real accurate set. The cards like Moran and Matty don't count but just like that Turner and I have found 2 new actual variations and not error cards. That offsets those. I am glad we are discussing this as I have thought this for a long time and never wanted to say anything because of some people.

[Wite3]

Interesting theories about the 400 subjects. The only problem I see with this is the print design. As Ted mentioned the backs of the t-80s match better with t206. This is because they used a printing plate design for the backs. That is how you get the more stylized tolstoi, lenox, sweet cap, etc. in the t206/t80s. In t205s, they used a moveable type backs. This allowed them to fix errors (and create for that matter) errors like the Hobby, Moran, Gray, etc.

I am not familiar enough with the fist series to comment but if I recall, they also used the moveable type.

Again, just my theories.

Joshua

[steve B]

I've had a look at the few T205s I own, and haven't seen any indication that movable type was used. None of the traits that would indicate movable type are there at all.

If I recall it correctly, The T80's etc were packed in the same packs as T206 where the pack had one baseball and one military card. Consistent back branding would have mattered, but once they'd moved on to including the bio and stats there wasn't enough room.

Although I must admit seeing the bio inside the fancy frames would have been great.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Wite3

Interesting theories about the 400 subjects. The only problem I see with this is the print design. As Ted mentioned the backs of the t-80s match better with t206. This is because they used a printing plate design for the backs. That is how you get the more stylized tolstoi, lenox, sweet cap, etc. in the t206/t80s. In t205s, they used a moveable type backs. This allowed them to fix errors (and create for that matter) errors like the Hobby, Moran, Gray, etc.

I am not familiar enough with the fist series to comment but if I recall, they also used the moveable type.

Again, just my theories.

Joshua

Originally Posted by steve B

I've had a look at the few T205s I own, and haven't seen any indication that movable type was used. None of the traits that would indicate movable type are there at all.

If I recall it correctly, The T80's etc were packed in the same packs as T206 where the pack had one baseball and one military card. Consistent back branding would have mattered, but once they'd moved on to including the bio and stats there wasn't enough room.

Although I must admit seeing the bio inside the fancy frames would have been great.

Steve B

Steve check out my thread about Latham HLC backs. There are 2 of them with a faint upside down W or what I like to call the M.A. Latham error. That's proof enough for me that there was movable type set. As long as everything was set and tight there would not be any reason to remove or lose one. We know Piedmont and Polar Bear were the bigggest runs so the quotes from Doc white, which seem to be a SP for PB backs, may have been used for another card. Just some thoughts.

[tedzan]

1911 was a very busy year at American Lithographic......they produced a heck of a lot of pretty cardboard with their BB and non-Sports sets.



.................................................. ...... T201 MECCA BB .................................................. .................... T205







T42 & T43 Birds





T80 Military Series




T77 Lighthouse cards






TED Z

[tedzan]

One of my favorite T205's. Donahue was an excellent 1st Baseman. One of his biggest claims to fame was when he hit a single
to break up Ed Reulbach's bid for a No-Hitter in the 2nd game of the 1906 World Series between the two Chicago teams.

Although, I've wondered why he was pictured in the T205 set, since his Major League career ended on October 2, 1909. Does
this suggest to us how far in advance American Litho. was planning this set. Or, is Donahue simply a carry-over from the T206
set ?
Unfortunately, 2 years after this card of him was issued, Donahue suffered a very untimely death at the young age of 34.



....



TED Z

[Wite3]

Movable type had to be used. They would not have redone entire plates to fix the Hoblitzell spelling errors, Gray with stats, etc. BUT the most convincing evidence is that the last line of the Mattern back appears as the stray type in the Moran variation. How does this happen you ask? Very easy...they just did not remove the last line of type from the blocks in the printing. I also think it lends credence that the set was printed in several different printings to fix the errors.
Joshua

[tedzan]

Hope to see some of you at the Oaks Philly Show this weekend.

And, let's see or talk about some more T205's.


T-Rex TED

[steve B]

Two replies together, plus some general comment. Followed by a nearly total rewrite and partial change of opinion.

Andrew - I wouldn't completely rule out moveable type. I had another look at the thread about Latham. It's unusual to have a bit of type low enough that it prints that light. And the varying size of the periods are more like an incompletely erased litho plate.

Joshua - I'll have to disagree about ALC not redoing an entire plate to repair an error. They repaired or replaced plates somewhat often during the preceeding 3 years while doing the T206s, and I can't see them making a major change in proceedure that would reduce quality.

Overall, there are some interesting things here.

Typography usually has a different quality that lithography. letters printed from moveable type typicaly show either indentations in the paper, or a ridge of ink at the edge where some squeezed out during the printing. Sometimes both. The T205s I have show the even ink distribution and lack of indents typical of offset lithography.
I'd love to see one showing the traits of typography.

BUT===The Latham thread is interesting. While T206s are thought to have been printed fronts first and there's a lot to support that, having an offset transfer under the front printing means backs first, at least partly.(Printing a color or two on the front then doignthe back and going back later to finish the front is possible) And If I'm not mistaken T205s are much tougher with blank backs.

I had written in an earlier draft "Typically litho shops won't have moveable type in the shop, nor a press to print with it. The proceses are so different it's not practical."
In attempting to find out if it might have been possible to print from type on a litho press of the era I came across the text of a book that clarified quite a bit!

http://www.archive.org/stream/offset...wuoft_djvu.txt

The book itself is a 1922 version of one originally released in 1917 to help printers in the change from working from stones to working with plates.
And it's very detailied technically.

The two sections I found immediately interesting were the section describing the making of transfers to lay out the plates, one of the bits of 1910's era printing that I knew of, but not in detail.

The other I think applies here, and describes making transfers from type!

So I'll readjust my thinking. I'm becoming convinced that the T205 backs were partly set in type, transfers made and stones or plates made from the transfers. Complex? Yes. A known practice at the time? Apparently so, but only in more skilled shops. And ALC would have had at least a few very skilled workers.

Steve B

[T205Guy]

I might be a little lost when it comes to printing processes, however, has anyone else noticed the Sweet Caporal backs on the "James Scott" card. It seems that the whole block of type for the players description is "wracked" top to bottom, but not side to side. Might this be an indication of movable type?? There are plenty to look at on Ebay...

Ed