Was I Shilled??

[calvindog]

And the perfect fraud victim.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And the perfect fraud victim.

+1

I try not to bid more than I should but I should also get a good buy if no one else bids legitimately. Hell yes I care if I am shilled. If someone doesn't want to sell an item for a lower than they want amount then there are legitimate ways to do that. Shilling isn't one of them.

[ctownboy]

Wow, people paying more than they otherwise would and they don't mind?

This either means they have so much money it doesn't really matter or they have more money than sense. Either way, I have a deal for you.

Since you don't mind spending more on something than you otherwise would, the next time you guys decide to spend X amount on something but get it for Y (a lesser amount) I will (if you send me a private E mail) give you my PayPal address. That way, you still get the thing you wanted for the amount you wanted to pay.

For example, you want a certain T206 card and are willing to pay $100 dollars for it. However, at auction end, you win it for $65 dollars. So you have an extra $35 dollars you didn't plan on having. Just send that extra $35 dollars my way.....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Wow, people paying more than they otherwise would and they don't mind?

I have no problem playing in hypotheticals, but your fundamental misunderstanding of what I am saying is in your first question "People paying more than they otherwise would".

I do not think that an auction with a shill means I am not getting an item for less than I "otherwise would." Sellers who shill take that into account when they list items. If you could stop shilling 100%, you would not open a world of cheap goods for yourself. You'd open a world of higher prices disclosed at the beginning. In either world, you pay the same. That's why I don't care.

What all "Shill-Haters" want is the price that the item would have sold for if there was no shill, right? When I turn back the clock, I don't stop at the time of the shill bid. I go back to the auction beginning. If you could tie the seller's hands as a shiller before he listed the item he never would have listed the item at the price he did. He'd have set an open reserve or a higher minimum bid.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And the perfect fraud victim.

What can I say? I like being fraudulently induced to buy baseball cards at prices I am comfortable paying. You can fraudulently induce me into that kind of racket all day and all night. I'm not looking for bargains based on some puritanical expectation of an auction format. I'm happy to pay what the seller wants me to pay, if I'm happy with the price. Most of the time there is a big fat sticker in a grocery aisle. Sometimes the seller plays games. Never have I paid money involuntarily.

On this one, I think it is pretty evident that a new guy joined ebay in order to buy some of this guy's BINs, and then he saw this album at auction and was interested in bidding.

The only way you can prove that this was a shill based on the objective facts that we have today is if you can explain all the prior BIN purchases. If you are ignoring the prior BIN purchases you are not willing to engage in a serious discussion on this topic. Period.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The only way you can prove that this was a shill based on the objective facts that we have today is if you can explain all the prior BIN purchases. If you are ignoring the prior BIN purchases you are not willing to engage in a serious discussion on this topic. Period.

Quit using logic on these people. It's not working.

[Runscott]

Well, maybe it's a cover-up for a shill i.d., but the accused 0-feedback shiller did a BIN within the last hour, from the same seller.

I have had a few 0-feedback bidders who won their first item with me and became regular customers. Everyone one of us had 0 feedback at one point.

Scott <=== guess I'm one of the blind idiots some have described in this thread.

[tbob]

When I first started bidding on pre-war cards on ebay many years ago and I had a 0 feedback, I recall that I also bid on a number of tobacco cards, all from the same seller. It took me a while to feel comfortable with ebay and begin putting bids in on different items from different sellers so I don't think that per se means a guy is shilling. I also have agreed in the past on some posts when suspected shilling is mentioned but I have also felt some posters are a little too shill-happy to jump to conclusions. I never called anyone an idiot or a moron for disagreeing with my opinion though....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tbob

I never called anyone an idiot or a moron for disagreeing with my opinion though....

When you're in a debate with someone and they call you an idiot or a moron, it is a pretty good sign that you made a good point.

[T206Collector]

I have a great shilling idea -- let's have an auction house where the house ADMITS that there will be shill bidding. I believe that just as many people will participate and will bid what they want to pay for the card.

Would the shill-haters at least agree that that would be the same thing as an auction house that has a hidden reserve?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

+1

[D. Bergin]

Let me be clear. I'm not in the camp either, that says it's ok you got shilled as long as you got the item at your price..........though I understand where those guys are coming from.

I don't condone shilling in any form. If you don't trust the auction process, use a reserve, high minimum, or list it at a straight price. I've got tons of stuff I think is a waste listing in a 7-10 day window at auction. Most of that stuff gets listed for retail on my websites.

I think it's a serious offense and I'd get annoyed if I thought my own bid got shilled up.

Because I think it's a serious offense, I think it's a travesty that others throw around the word so easily. It's an accusation. I'd be p*ssed, and I'd be mortified if somebody accused me of shilling one of my auctions. I've been selling on Ebay long enough to know, I've had plenty of auctions with strange bidders, and bidding patterns that could have drawn the attention of the "shilling police". Anybody who's sold on Ebay with any regularity has.

People seem to often use the logic......."that's not how I'd bid" to jump to a conclusion that somebody is shilling an auction.

Every bidder is different, with different strategies and different ideas on how they'd like to win an auction. Many of them make no sense whatsoever to me, but it is what it is.



Now, the auction in question in this thread. it's pretty scary how quickly the lynch mob formed behind the "Kill The Witch" crowd, even after certain facts were laid out pretty plainly.

The actual timing of this sellers auctions and the bids make it fairly easy, with about 5 minutes of detective work, to debunk any sort of shilling fantasy.

If it is a shill, it's the most poorly conceived shill I've ever seen.

Worst case scenario, it's somebody who's giving this seller a ride by buying up a bunch of their retail listings without any intention of paying. I've no reason to know, one way or another at this point.

I have a hard time believing, a seller whose been around decades, threatens their own reputation by inventing a shill account for one auction. Meanwhile they buy up almost couple dozen of their own BIN's. Incurring the fees of such for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Now, I don't know if this seller has a previous reputation for shilling, if they've actually shilled before, have other shilling accounts. But this auction gives no evidence of that.........actually it's quite the contrary IMO.

[calvindog]

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

It might be a waste of time and energy but it's still what is being discussed in this thread. And there seem to be some very different feelings on the original auction, or at least potential different possibilities, so this one WAS probably worth discussing. I rarely see so many members so divided like this. (yes, I know there are exceptions but to this extent is unusual)

[calvindog]

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

[Kenny Cole]

To some degree, the mind-set is one and the same. You don't want to admit (or find out) that you got shilled and overpaid, and you certainly don't want to admit (or find out) that the card you overpaid for was altered.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Leon

I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues.

Exactly, and that's partly why my cards are in this category...

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg