Reasons to agree with DAN McKEE....regarding the PIEDMONT Plank

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pete, as I recall the before photos were pretty grainy and inconclusive, but in any event they at best would prove that the card was trimmed, right? They wouldn't speak to whether the original was an oversize card from a pack, or one from a sheet.

We know this from statements by those involved. This is no longer a secret. There is a lot of good information about this subject in 'The Card'.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let me ask it a different way, how do we know that the Conlon Plank is from the same sheet as the Gretzky Wagner, I have heard that mentioned a couple of times now but don't know the background.

I'm also curious about this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill Hughes said PSA knew it was trimmed, but who can vouch for his credibility? Bill Mastro has steadfastly denied it.

[theuclakid]

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry

Bruce, just curious, do you apply this same reasoning to the Gretzky Wagner, which after all was seen in hand by PSA prior to grading it an 8?

[E93]

THe version of the story I have heard is that circulating around the show was word of a mint Wagner at a shop and Bill jumped on it, left the show, and went and bought the Wagner and other cards that were part of the group. I believe Lifson went along and loaned him some $ to facilitate the deal. If the card was already being touted as mint before Bill Mastro saw it, then if it did come from a sheet, it was presumably cut up before that. Whatever happened to Alan Ray? Apparently he was pissed when he found out how much Bill sold it for. It would good to get his version of things.
JimB

[theuclakid]

Peter, I suppose I would unless there is irrefutable evidence.....again what good are the grading companies then if everyone cant trust them to get the AUTHENTICATION correct? Most of us can give an accurate grade seeing a card raw in hand....it is the authentication that is key...and when a big spender buys a card at that level, then they have (should) to be trusting the authentication aspect...or they are not very wise....Bruce Perry

[theuclakid]

There is always going to be some well to do buyer out there who will buy these kind of top shelf cards, just to have, just to have bragging rights...they may not even be collectors or hobbyists.....and all the hoopla over the questionable authenticity of any of them, if they are even informed, is just speculation and hearsay to them....of course unless the authenticity can be disproven in a formal court of law.....it is just someone's opinion and nothing more to these buyers that just have to have the card....the cards are in holders.....authenticated....and stuck in a safe somewhere...Bruce Perry...oops sorry about the typo...GOODWIN Plank

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

Peter, I suppose I would unless there is irrefutable evidence.....again what good are the grading companies then if everyone cant trust them to get the AUTHENTICATION correct?

Bruce that is indeed the question but I am not sure of the answer, at least in all cases. Even if one assumes competence -- which is a big assumption -- certainly a cynic/skeptic could find financial incentives to give a card a numerical grade even if deserves an authentic. And once the card is encased, nobody can ever conclusively prove that they were wrong, as we have seen with the Wagner.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry

Hi Bruce

Sure, my hypothesis here (post #1) is based on the points that I stated in my presentation, which I think are pertinent. But, by no means am I trying to convince "a jury ".
Simply, my intent here is to stir up some thought-provoking discussion; and, hear some varying opinions regarding this new Plank card.

Anyhow, am I recalling correctly, but weren't you at Willow Grove in 1985 when Bill Mastro was shopping around the (Gretzky) Wagner ? If so, did you get a close look at
this card in its RAW form, as did a number of the collectors/dealers at the show ? ?

Many of us there who saw it that weekend thought it was not Factory-cut. However, PSA gave it a numeric grade. I guess...."PSA GAVE THEIR OPINION".

Subsequently, PSA graded Charlie Conlin's PIEDMONT Plank..AUTHENTIC. Don't you find this very contradictory; since, this Plank was the Gretzky Wagner's sheet-mate ?
This turns out to be an unacceptable example of arbitrary grading by a TPG....what is your opinion of this situation ?

Finally, although I favor SGC, by no means are they infallible. They have been wrong in the grading of a number of T206's in the past 12 years.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

We know this from statements by those involved. This is no longer a secret. There is a lot of good information about this subject in 'The Card'.



I'm also curious about this.

As one of a number of characters who were there in 1985 when Bill Mastro was shopping around the Gretzky Wagner (raw) in the George Washington Motor Lodge rooms
at Willow Grove, PA....I clearly recall that a PIEDMONT 150 Plank was spoken of as being part of the collection that Bill had acquired in Long Island, NY.

That day Bill was "touting" the Wagner, it was the talk of the Show that weekend. I saw the Wagner, I did not see the Plank. However, the secondary story was that a
"high grade" PIEDMONT Plank was included in this collection. And, the rumor circulating at the Willow Grove Show that weekend was that both Wagner and Plank were originally from the same (partial) sheet.

For many years, I wondered where that Plank went. Charlie Conlon and I did some great deals over the years at Willow Grove. We shared a lot of info regarding vintage
cards, but he never mentioned this Plank. When Charlie passed away in recent years, we found out that he had acquired the PIEDMONT Plank (Wagner's sheet-mate) in
a private deal with Bill back in the mid-1980's.

Hey guys, does a BB card "provenance" get any better than this ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have read lots about Alan Ray selling the Wagner to Mastro (through a Long Island card shop) but have never read that Alan Ray also had a Plank that he sold simultaneously. EDIT TO ADD If that's the case, that was quite a purchase by Mastro.