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  #1  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:07 AM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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"But it is quite a stretch to say that they missed it on something as significant as the Plank card"

Hi Adam! Welcome to the battle!

Does this imply that the Green Cobb is insignificant?
or that it is properly numerically graded in your opinion?



thanks
dan
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:17 AM
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How is putting the number on the Plank card any different than putting a number on strip cards, Bazookas, Oklahoma Today, or Esskay cards? According to Ted all of the Plank Piedmont 150s are hand cut, so this is just another case of a grading company putting a number on a handcut card.

Personally I think all handcut cards should be Authentic, but grading companies have decided to disagree with me.
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  #3  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:21 AM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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I agree Dan, no hand cut cards should have numbers.

The difference here is that the companies admit the strip cards and such are hand cut because that is the only way they could be cut and were supposed to be cut.

The T206 issue is supposed to be factory cut and the company is implying that this one is NOT hand cut.

A significant difference I think
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  #4  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danmckee View Post
I agree Dan, no hand cut cards should have numbers.

The difference here is that the companies admit the strip cards and such are hand cut because that is the only way they could be cut and were supposed to be cut.

The T206 issue is supposed to be factory cut and the company is implying that this one is NOT hand cut.

A significant difference I think
More than implying, they have stated with 100 percent certainty it is factory cut.
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  #5  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:35 AM
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Default Sgc 70 plank

It would really be nice to have psa's opinion on this as well.....
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  #6  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:43 AM
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For those who are sure it is trimmed:

SGC is standing behind their grading of this card as much as is humanly possible. So if you are sure it is trimmed, SGC must also realize that. Given that scenario, why would they stick their necks out like that? To date, they have allowed PSA to stand alone on a pedestal with their Wagner 8 debacle. Why would SGC take a chance at climbing up (down?) on that pedestal with them?

Just curious what your thoughts are.
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  #7  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:50 AM
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Not that I am 100% convinced that it is trimmed...nor do I really care as it's not a card I can afford...BUT...has PSA ever really been punished...or taken any kind of hit in any way as a result of their many many bungled grades?

The answer is...NO!!!!!
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  #8  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
For those who are sure it is trimmed:

SGC is standing behind their grading of this card as much as is humanly possible. So if you are sure it is trimmed, SGC must also realize that. Given that scenario, why would they stick their necks out like that? To date, they have allowed PSA to stand alone on a pedestal with their Wagner 8 debacle. Why would SGC take a chance at climbing up (down?) on that pedestal with them?

Just curious what your thoughts are.
Scott

I recall very well that approx. 12 years ago SGC...."was standing behind their grading"....of the T206 Matty (portrait) card with the Red HINDU back, despite the fact
that SGC was told it was an impossible front/back combo....and therefore, a FAKE.

Subsequently, SGC relented and removed this "re-fronted" Matty card from circulation.


Yes, I'm one of those who is very skeptical of this PIEDMONT Plank having been an original factory cut T206.


TED Z
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  #9  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:09 PM
MikeU MikeU is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
To date, they have allowed PSA to stand alone on a pedestal with their Wagner 8 debacle. Why would SGC take a chance at climbing up (down?)
To the masses, the Wagner is not a debacle, it is the pinnacle of the hobby, the lead in marketing and a 1 of 1 that can not be dethroned.

Can the Plank be the only other $1M+ card in the hobby? Sounds like a climb up.
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danmckee View Post
Does this imply that the Green Cobb is insignificant?
or that it is properly numerically graded in your opinion?
I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

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  #11  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:12 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206hound View Post
I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?


That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.
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  #12  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:13 PM
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Actually, I could see these 2 being swapped! I could live with the bat off numerically and the Green Cobb is just mind boggling.
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:15 PM
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i agree with you dan...with the top left and lower rt on that cobby as they appear...I believe it's trimmed.
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  #14  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
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Default SGC graded T206's

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:27 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theuclakid View Post
I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry
This is fairly stated Bruce, a good point.

Though I think SGC's consistency has changed after Derek left

and I will beg to differ on the Green Cobb

You could place that one on the moon and give me a telescope and I could see it is hacked.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theuclakid View Post
I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry
Bruce there is certainly an appeal to that argument, but ultimately the logic of it is that SGC is infallible: SGC is the expert, SGC examined it and graded it, therefore SGC must be right. Do you believe that?
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theuclakid View Post
I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry
+1
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danmckee View Post
That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.
Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:
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Last edited by Runscott; 12-29-2013 at 06:13 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:18 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:
Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

Last edited by danmckee; 03-22-2012 at 12:19 PM. Reason: . to ?
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  #20  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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6000+ views and rocking!

This is a kick-ass thread!

I see what Bill told me with the Cobb Bat off, that card looks good from the scan and looks like it would have warranted a numerical grade. Very interesting, has anyone looked at the other Authentics? How many look good?
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  #21  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:26 PM
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As long as we are at it, comments on this one?
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  #22  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:29 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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my opinion, top and bottom are hacked. But I welcome other opinions and I think we need the larger raw scan so that the holder insert doesn't deceive us at the corners.

John Wonka can you add the raw Magie for us?

Thank you
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Last edited by danmckee; 03-22-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:20 PM
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Default Plank

Quote:
Originally Posted by danmckee View Post
Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan
Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

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  #24  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:28 PM
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I would like to hear opinions about the sgc 84 joe doyle...that's the one i have a genuine interest in.

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 03-22-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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  #25  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:40 PM
danmckee danmckee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakhappy View Post
Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

mike.ca.ve


Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:
I agree with Scott. I have seen many, many caramel cards which were factory cut and had a big diamond cut on the top or bottom border without a matching diamond cut on the other top or bottom. I haven't seen as many of these weird cuts on tobacco cards but I have seen some like the Speaker which was displayed above.
I'm not weighing in on whether the Magie, Plank or Cobb are trimmed, although I do have an opinion, but rather just pointing out that not all diamond/diagonal cuts which don't have a matching opposite border, are hand cut or altered. I might mention I have also seen (and once owned) a very nice orange background Tinker E98 which had a wicked diamond cut left border and a straight right border and it sailed through grading with an SGC 40grade as SGC recognized it was a factory miscut.
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  #27  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:50 PM
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Bringing this one back from the past.

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Last edited by atx840; 03-22-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:18 PM
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Chris, I didn't realize that it had been roughed up in order to get the numerical grade. That's something that would not have happened prior to the birth of slabbing

I just took the Speaker out and looped the borders very carefully - no problems at all. It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way.
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