The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I were interested in the card, I would be more impressed by provenance than by an assurance from the "renowned" president of SGC which, as Wonka points out, is essentially redundant. I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment.

[ullmandds]

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

As far as I know, there are no potential conflicts of interest at PSA (see prior posts on this subject), so their opinion would have some incremental value to me, yes.

[danmckee]

John Wonka, you should be a politician. You do things your way and I will do things mine. A have always called a spade a spade and a heart a heart. Remember, without the Dan Mckee "rough around the edges" "calls it like he sees it" "head first guns blazing attitude" you wouldn't look so prim and proper and non-bias and intelligent as you do.

But thanks for the kind words in the beginning of your post anyway.

To the gentlman that collects all of the graded cards and was very friendly above, I think Kenny answered you well. Yes there are fakes slabbed and I have posted a few here recently. PSA has slabbed color fro joys and there was a National Game reprint and fake postcards slabbed by SGC. To me this should NEVER happen. Missing alterations or being off a grade, yes, those things are understandable to me.

3rd party grading has been a help keeping fraud off of the internet, I will agree with that.

In closing: I want to state that this thread is my opinion from 42+ years of collecting.

[tedzan]

Thanks for bringing this Plank situation to our attention. No way, were any of the PIEDMONT Eddie Plank cards marketed in PIEDMONT packs.
Therefore, I don't think we will ever find an original PIEDMONT 150 Plank that was factory-cut.

For those who wonder if PSA would have "numerically" graded this Plank....recall that PSA graded Charlie Conlin's PIEDMONT Plank "Authentic-
Altered".
And, we do know the provenance of that T206 Plank.

Incidently, don't misconstrue, I do not favor PSA over SGC. Just making a point here.


TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

To my knowledge, i have never seen a plank with a pied 150 back graded numerically by psa.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

3rd party grading has been a help keeping fraud off of the internet, I will agree with that.

That's it, really - all the rest has been completely about $$$. Once PSA started grading cards, Near-mint T206's began to magically come out of the woodwork. Where were they before? (they were bigger)

As technology improves, creating 21st century 1909 factory-cut edges will become easier and easier.

[E93]

It is possible that this was a legitimate factory cut. I am well aware of all the reasons people like my friend Wonka (Hi John) think it is not possible. But let me throw out a possible scenario.

We are reasonably certain at this point that Wagner and Plank (and a couple of others) were added at the end of the 150 series. A small number of those made their way into Sweet Cap packs. It is possible that they were printing Piedmont sheets with the intention to distribute them when they were notified of the need to stop the press to pull the Wagner. Maybe a very small number of those actually made it into pack resulting in only one surviving. Or maybe some were cut at the factory but never put into packs and an employee brought it home for his kids.

The point is that for me the three previously known examples (two obvious printer scraps and a hand cut card in the '80's) are too small of a sample to draw a definitive conclusion. I am not saying that it definitely happened in this way. I am just saying that something like this is possible. And IMHO, a look at the scan is insufficient for making a definitive determination on style of cut. By outward appearances, I think it people were not biased to assume it was not factory cut, no red light would be going off when seeing that card. It looks good.

And regardless of aptness of the slab, it is a spectacular card with one of four known Piedmont backs.
JimB

[danmckee]

Jim it is a truly amazing card! No question about that. The card is spectacular.

Your scenario seems possible to me, why not? I think that is a fair possibility.

I must say though that several people who also deal in graded cards looked at this Plank and immediately said trimmed. Some have no idea of the Piedmont 150 back history. And one runs a major auction house and his opinion is very well respected.

of course my opinion is trimmed but I can also respect your opinion of possibly not trimmed.

Thanks for participating here today, it is good to hear from you.

Now if you would kindly take a minute and look at the Green Cobb that is slabbed in the same auction, I would appreciate your thoughts on that card as well if you don't mind.

take care
dan

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

It is possible that this was a legitimate factory cut. I am well aware of all the reasons people like my friend Wonka (Hi John) think it is not possible. But let me throw out a possible scenario.

We are reasonably certain at this point that Wagner and Plank (and a couple of others) were added at the end of the 150 series. A small number of those made their way into Sweet Cap packs. It is possible that they were printing Piedmont sheets with the intention to distribute them when they were notified of the need to stop the press to pull the Wagner. Maybe a very
small number of those actually made it into pack resulting in only one surviving. Or maybe some were cut at the factory but never put into packs and an employee brought it home for his kids.

The point is that for me the three previously known examples (two obvious printer scraps and a hand cut card in the '80's) are too small of a sample to draw a definitive conclusion. I am not saying that it definitely happened in this way. I am just saying that something like this is possible. And IMHO, a look at the scan is insufficient for making a definitive determination on style of cut. By outward appearances, I think it people were not biased to assume it was not factory cut, no red light would be going off when seeing that card. It looks good.

And regardless of aptness of the slab, it is a spectacular card with one of four known Piedmont backs.
JimB

Jim,

All very plausible and not crazy in fact well thought and could have happened. As usual you make good solid points it would be hard to disagree with you and impossible to say you’re 100% wrong. Impossible because none of us will ever truly know unless we become clairvoyant and or have firsthand experience or knowledge of the factory floors in 1909.

What I will say for what that’s worth as I claim to be no expert here. I feel the above Plank does not warrant the numerical grade based upon the images and given what I have seen of the Plank cards to date and my limited hobby experience.

Can one disagree with me sure can in fact it appears SGC does. Just as I can make my up my mind to say better look at this thing as AUTH regardless of that flip.

I will say that one (me) doesn’t get the warm and fuzzies to go guns blazing open checkbook at a card with a super double seal of approval and then see that Cobb above only to look back at that bottom edge of the above Plank.

Also I would add I would be lying if I didn’t look over my shoulder at my other monitor with a screen saver full of my SGC graded cards cycling thru and say to myself man I hope I’m wrong here and they are 100% correct.

Cheers,

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by E93

The point is that for me the three previously known examples (two obvious printer scraps and a hand cut card in the '80's) are too small of a sample to draw a definitive conclusion.

...
JimB

'Three' isn't actually a sample size - it's 3/4 of the total known population. If there were known to be twenty and we could only see four, and they were all hand-cut, THEN you could use the 'sample size' argument, although 20% is a large sample, even in a population that small.

If we assume that there WERE twenty, but only these four survived, then we are assuming that ALL of the factory-cut ones are either undiscovered, or did not survive. Isn't it more likely that factory-issued cards would have survived, than 'scraps' such as these three? (plus the one in question).

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's it, really - all the rest has been completely about $$$. Once PSA started grading cards, Near-mint T206's began to magically come out of the woodwork. Where were they before? (they were bigger)

As technology improves, creating 21st century 1909 factory-cut edges will become easier and easier.

I started thinking about the same thing. My brother and I started seeing more MINT T206 cards around 1998 or so. back then we had a large ungraded collection of T206 cards...well over 600. My brother had hundreds of cards graded by PSA and out of the hundreds of cards only 4 were graded beter than 6. So where did all the mint T cards come from ?? Where are they still coming from ? I want to know
there is a guy who lives in East Dayton who uses a laser to trim paper products he makes for the gaming industry. I have no doubt it could be used to precisely cut a card. Sometimes you can detect a slight evidence of burning on the paper he is cutting, but not all the time. his setup is all computerized and takes up a good part of his basement. ..it's expensive and impressive and he can make cuts to plastics, wood or paper that people just cant do accurately.

[steve B]

A laser cutter leaves a very different edge than a guillotine cutter. The difference should be obvious to someone who knows what they're looking at.

That being said, I've often wondered if the place I worked for would consent to an experiment of cuting a T206 on the cutter to see if the edges would pass grading. I don't have any that I'd be willing to destroy though and if it passed I'd destroy it for sure after documenting it enough.

I am curious what things aside from the front/back combo make people think it's trimmed? I don't see anything that seems obvious to me. A couple corners look slightly odd, a bit too sharp on one of the edges. But I have a few that I know aren't trimmed with the same sort of corner.

And the disclaimers
I'm not bidding on the card - it would be several times my lifetime expenditures on cards so far.

I'm ambivalent about TPG, there are some good things and some bad about it. I still look at the card if I'm buying.

Steve Birmingham