The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[wonkaticket]

I was going to start a thread that focused on this topic this week as I have my doubts on the cards the Plank in particular. But since Dan has seen his way to open the board with his typical curmudgeon napalm, I figure here is as good a place as any to discuss my concerns and or reservations publicly about this.

Being totally transparent I will bid so this is no way an attempt to devalue anyone’s listing or give an edge etc. Also any bidding I do especially in regards to the Plank will be limited by my overall concerns unless they can be eliminated. Not sure it really matters but I wanted it out there nonetheless.

The Plank card I feel is trimmed I come to this conclusion for a couple of reasons. Many of which I will summarize here but have been discussed here in detail before.

First the shear lack of numbers on this card along with the fact that all known previous examples (3) are hand cut or in some shape or form very easily identifiable as special or non-factory production cards, leads me to question.



While it could be argued that limited numbers of something isn’t necessarily a negative it can be a something to make one question. Example there are very, very few Doyle’s but more than (4) are present. Also of the known Doyle examples 75% of that population isn’t in some shape or form altered or non-factory cut in obvious ways. So there is little doubt to the Doyle’s once circulation or at least factory produced and cut state. The same can’t be said for Plank Piedmont cards.

Second there’s the relative number of Plank cards in general. This includes all Planks. Below is a link to a good majority of Plank specimens that have been offered or sold since about 1997 or so.

http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collectionpublic/planks

If you have a Plank I’m missing and would like to share that would be appreciated.

You will notice that only about 16 examples out of close to 50 are of the 150 subject’s variety this includes known Piedmonts. Take away the Piedmont cards and based on this sampling roughly one in 4 Planks is a 150 card. There is little doubt that the Sweet Caporal 150’s were in fact distributed and or factory cut. Once again the same can’t be said of Piedmont Planks.

In fact the numbers really tend to point to the card not being produced and circulated. For example as tough as the 150 Sweet Caporal cards may be in comparison to 350 versions they are still available in a sizable sampling even in my limited snapshot (link). They are also available for the most part unaltered minus the ones that have had work done later in life.

Then there’s the card itself see for yourselves but I’m seeing non-factory cut things happening here if you disagree that’s cool that’s why it’s here for discussion.



Finally there is the body and write up. I would like to say that this is in no way a personal attack on the person who does the write ups as I consider him a very nice person and respect him.

The listing just seems too try too hard to get across “I’m not trimmed”. It also seems to be a direct counter to every publicly known aversion/theories on Plank Piedmont backed cards. All of this I guess is par for the course but it just seems odd. Example the added endorsement from the President and Head Grader of SGC.

To safely assure you that the previously stated SGC grading process for this incredible T206 Plank heirloom is completely accurate, we are proud to post the following statement from BOTH SGC’s renowned president and head grader:

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

One would assume that once SGC graded and encapsulated the card into their SGC 70 marked holder that was endorsement enough. That action alone states their professional opinion the card is unaltered.

Does this now mean that all SGC cards need additional letters from company executives to verify grades? SGC has graded some very amazing cards over the year’s significant cards in fact. I have never seen such an endorsement so why now? It may be my skepticism popping up but the Shakespeare line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind here.

Then there’s the other cards in the collection lots of authentic cards in that album and amazingly the one super amazing rule breaker card that most folks would assume is authentic breaks all rules.

Add in the personal super-duper triple examination of this card, personal endorsements from company executives then flip to Lot #6 and one has to wonder did they get it right? Is this the Plank Piedmont 150 rule breaker?



I’ll say that I have been a huge SGC supporter and fan still am. In a hobby that has been questioning their existence I have supported them so there is no axe to grind here on my part. I also have a lot of cards in their holders. I would also like to add I disagree with Dan not all grading is a joke. Grading has played a lot of roles in our hobby since its inception some very positive and some not so much. With the rapid growth of our beloved hobby I think third party grading companies are standing at a very unique point in their existence.

One that can ultimately relate to added value and ultimately strengthen our hobby, or a catalyst of doubt and concern for collectors. I think TPG’s can make the place better and have for the most part. However continued success and growth will come from accountability and consistency for all not select cards and or circumstances.

In conclusion I’m not saying that we will never see a Piedmont 150 Plank that isn’t hand cut anything is possible. But in my collecting opinion the above Plank is not that card based on the card itself added with what is currently known about Piedmont 150 Planks.

Cheers,

John

[RichR]

Wow your post John is why I love this board!

[FrankWakefield]

Good stuff, John. I wonder how many more letters SGC will be writing to accompany certain slabbed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I were interested in the card, I would be more impressed by provenance than by an assurance from the "renowned" president of SGC which, as Wonka points out, is essentially redundant. I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment.

[ullmandds]

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

"I wonder too if PSA would agree with the factory-cut assessment. "

WOULD THIS REALLY MATTER? It would mean even less to me then SGC's "assessment!"

As far as I know, there are no potential conflicts of interest at PSA (see prior posts on this subject), so their opinion would have some incremental value to me, yes.

[danmckee]

John Wonka, you should be a politician. You do things your way and I will do things mine. A have always called a spade a spade and a heart a heart. Remember, without the Dan Mckee "rough around the edges" "calls it like he sees it" "head first guns blazing attitude" you wouldn't look so prim and proper and non-bias and intelligent as you do.

But thanks for the kind words in the beginning of your post anyway.

To the gentlman that collects all of the graded cards and was very friendly above, I think Kenny answered you well. Yes there are fakes slabbed and I have posted a few here recently. PSA has slabbed color fro joys and there was a National Game reprint and fake postcards slabbed by SGC. To me this should NEVER happen. Missing alterations or being off a grade, yes, those things are understandable to me.

3rd party grading has been a help keeping fraud off of the internet, I will agree with that.

In closing: I want to state that this thread is my opinion from 42+ years of collecting.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Good stuff, John. I wonder how many more letters SGC will be writing to accompany certain slabbed cards.

Great question Frank.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

One would assume that once SGC graded and encapsulated the card into their SGC 70 marked holder that was endorsement enough. That action alone states their professional opinion the card is unaltered.

Does this now mean that all SGC cards need additional letters from company executives to verify grades? SGC has graded some very amazing cards over the year’s significant cards in fact. I have never seen such an endorsement so why now? It may be my skepticism popping up but the Shakespeare line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind here.

John

I really like your above assessment.

Glass half-full read: "We respect the opinions of you collectors, regarding the origins of Piedmont Planks, so we're going an extra mile on this one."

Glass half-empty read: "Yeah, everyone knows that the grading companies slab trimmed cards, but we didn't touch this one, and honestly - we really think it's legit."

[bosoxfan]

I know very little about the history of the Plank card. This will probably come across a little ignorant which is the case, but maybe from a different perspective.

Yes, sometimes a card will get by a TPG that has been trimmed, altered whatever.
Assuming, the grader at SCG knows the history of this Plank card, wouldn't they go out of their way to be absolutely, positively certain. To have unequivocal proof that the card is factory cut. And because of this 1 of a kind situation, feel it necessary put out a statement. Just sayin

Rich

[ullmandds]

personally...i'd take the opinion of this board on whether a card is altered...over any grader anyday of my life!!!!!

[bosoxfan]

I don't doubt that at all and you're probably right, but the grader, head grader in this case, is the only one to have had card in hand.
Do you think that some graders are inept or is it possible something else is going on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bosoxfan

I know very little about the history of the Plank card. This will probably come across a little ignorant which is the case, but maybe from a different perspective.

Yes, sometimes a card will get by a TPG that has been trimmed, altered whatever.
Assuming, the grader at SCG knows the history of this Plank card, wouldn't they go out of their way to be absolutely, positively certain. To have unequivocal proof that the card is factory cut. And because of this 1 of a kind situation, feel it necessary put out a statement. Just sayin

Rich

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

Again, I agree,

but if a card doctor can fool a grader who has the card under a microscope, how come he can't fool experienced collectors looking at a scan?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What is unequivocal proof in this context? There are card doctors who certainly can mimic a factory cut, how can anyone say with 100 percent certainty it's original?

Theoretically the card could be factory cut, as JimB insightfully discusses. However, because of the likely ability of card doctors to imitate a factory cut, I think that in the absence of pedigree establishing that the card was in fact pulled from a Piedmont pack (or brought home by a Piedmont employee after the card was factory cut), I don't see how one could establish the requisite certainty to warrant a numerical grade. Going forward it will probably serve the grading companies well to know current hobby thinking when grading cards such as this that are not believed to have had a normal distribution. While I am only speculating as to what SGC knew when they graded this Plank, my guess is that had they known what has been revealed in this thread about Piedmont 150 Planks, they would not have given the card a numerical grade.

EDITED TO ADD that it will be interesting to see how the market prices this card. Will it sell for what an "authentic" would sell for, or will the slab dictate the price regardless of the correctness of the grade?

[ullmandds]

If any of the major grading companies aren't aware of the p150 plank/wagner phenomena...then they're not doing their job very well?!

[GasHouseGang]

I admit I don't even collect this set and I can't tell if this card is trimmed or not, but did anyone notice the variation on this card? Look at the back, there is an extra squiggle after the "e" in the word The. Take a look, none of the other Planks shown have it...

[atx840]

John, I couldn't find this one on your list, SC350. Auction

[wonkaticket]

Thanks Chris, I'll look that over to make sure it's not in another companies holder as a lot were crossed back and forth. Example my Plank has hit two once in PSa now in SGC.

Thanks for the pic and link.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corey SGC did know. According to Goodwin's ad, SGC told Goodwin at first that the card was hand cut and could not have been factory cut.

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Corey SGC did know. According to Goodwin's ad, SGC told Goodwin at first that the card was hand cut and could not have been factory cut.

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

Well obviously I stand corrected. Guess I should have read the auction descripton. I'm a bit amazed they gave it a grade, regardless what their inspection showed. I know for a fact SGC graded certain Lionel Carter cards that he personally pulled from packs as Authentics for being undersized even though nobody reasonably thought Lionel Carter trimmed his cards. So if the normal-looking borders on those cards couldn't save them from an Authentic grade, it seems inconsistent that normal-looking borders on this Plank would suffice to give it a numerical grade.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Corey SGC did know. According to Goodwin's ad, SGC told Goodwin at first that the card was hand cut and could not have been factory cut.

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

I read that as them saying it could only get an A before even seing it based on all other piedmont Planks being hand cut. But after lots of inspection finding out that it did not appear handcut.

Steve Birmingham

[danmckee]

Based on that bottom edge, they should have stuck with their decision before they saw it then. They would have been more accurate.