T206 upside down backs "should they be on the back run?"

[mrvster]

I just have to do it.....i have been thinking about this for a while....i feel an "upside down" t206 back should be included as part of a back collection/run...yes, they are extremely tuf!! but they are out there with some hard core searching....we don't have to differentate if it is a "4" back ect, just upside down back.....

Why not????

blank back, old mill brown, brown lenox, cobb....are all on the list

Why not


i feel they should below bl 460 in rarity just over uzit....




Thoughts????

[alanu]

If you include the upside down back, haven't you just doubled the back types since there could be an upside down back for each regular back.

[ullmandds]

[Jaybird]

[ullmandds]

very nice Jason!

[wonkaticket]

I vote no.

I think the back set should be broken down into 3 types.

#1 One of each type of brand (Basic Set)

#2 One of each type of brand with each series and color this means Brown Lenox, BL460 etc. (Master Set)

#3 Same as number (Master Set #2) plus Brown Old Mill, upside downs, miscuts and crazy stuff...we can call this the (You Need Help Set), or (Ultra Set.)

Just my thoughts....

Cheers,

John

[carrigansghost]

For the first and more than likely the last time, I have to agree with a certain board memember, Peter, if T206's bother you, then why do you respond to all of their threads?

Never met you or had any dealings with you, just interested.

Rawn

[ullmandds]

Can't one be called a "super" set?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

For the first and more than likely the last time, I have to agree with a certain board memember, Peter, if T206's bother you, then why do you respond to all of their threads?

Never met you or had any dealings with you, just interested.

Rawn

Unfortunately, it looks like I still own you and your buddy.

Give it up and move on.

[wonkaticket]

Sure but Ultra sounds way more cool! IMO.

[ullmandds]

Boredom at work...nothing more!

[mrvster]

Alan,
just an example (can be any brand, piedy, sweet cap, om) ect.....

WONKS

I was thinking more of a subset like you if not included on the "main stream" list...

include brown lenox, brown om, upsides, blank, ect,...but i still say upsides need to be on main list just cause i sayLOL

You know, the really cool stuf that us freaks collect...

Peace

just wanted to start some drama

[Blitzu]

I say no. Everything on the list now is substantially different and unique from all the rest. An upside down back is nothing more than something that's already on the list. All the rest were printed differently including the 213 and 215 coupon/Red Cross. The only one on the list that wasn't printed differently was the blank. I still feel the blank belongs on here because it was substantially different and unique from all the rest. Otherwise if we included upside down backs, why not ghosts, or double backs? If that were the case many of those would be 1 of 1's and sort of defeat the purpose. Plus the number of variations would be extremely high.

Plus, one last point to ponder, how can you ever prove if the back or the front was printed upside down? For all we know the front could have been the mistake.

[mrvster]

Since im stoked about winning my third of the sweet cap 460 fact 30 sweeney yellow brown printers scrap "alternative"back from Leon and Scott ....id love to see some sister cards off the same sheet/sheets...

I have been discussing the rarity of them also, they are a "new" or alternative back just being realized thanks to collectors like JIM RIVERA who are keen enuf to figure it out....

So i have seen a few over the years and would venture to guess 50-100(excluding dan mckees 50 examples!) + examples exist of this back.... would anyone venture a guess??

I have 3..... Matty ( dark cap THANKS MARTIN NEAL)...Konetchy glove low(THANKS CRAIG DIAMOND)......and now sweeney (THANKS LEON AND SCOTT)...


i have seen Davis, seymour, chance, chase, ect ect....usually there are twins or triplets, but not more than lets say 4 or 5....


How many do you think are out there????????


and if u have one, post a scan.....

[wonkaticket]

Sub set is cool idea, for me Brown Lenox is factory cut and was issued as far as we know so I think if you want a master set of backs that includes BL460 and Brown Lenox....but what the hell do I know i'm one of the only guys who doesn't have a website on T206's.

John

[mrvster]

Great points!!

but brown lenox is on there

that is just a color variation

btw Leon or moderator, i accidentally put my yellow / brown in this thread, can u put a seperate post???im lazy and dont feel like re typing

[mrvster]

Great point!!

i say anything factory cut should be on the main list including brown lenox, red hindu ect and even THE FACTORY CUT upside downs(like your engle)...


then a Subset- i vote anything NOT factory cut...


in scarcity..

cobb

Brown om


proof


Blank back

front ghost

obverse ghost

or something to this effect.....just playing around..



i doubt cobb was issued at all....so it could be classified here and put the cobb issue to rest


man im going to get a load of crap for this one!!!LOL

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Great points!!



btw Leon or moderator, i accidentally put my yellow / brown in this thread, can u put a seperate post???im lazy and dont feel like re typing

I see the card and can help but not sure what you want done? Keep going Johnny, you can rewrite the books yourself!!

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Great points!!

but brown lenox is on there

that is just a color variation

btw Leon or moderator, i accidentally put my yellow / brown in this thread, can u put a seperate post???im lazy and dont feel like re typing

I consider the brown OM and brown Lenox as substantive since they are unique in color from everything else, plus were done at the factory (not a chemical spill, etc). Just like the apple green sovereign is considered to be unique on the list. An upside down card has no unique features from anything else on the list depending on his you hold it. This is just my opinion, and down for considering others opinions.

Jared

[atx840]

For me a full back run has all backs up to and including the BL460.

An Ultra back run should add non production cards but not include "errors". This consists of the blank back and both Br Lenox/OM. I don't consider either one an intentional production color change, possibly more of a test run.

Cobb for me is an advertising piece that was given out, not part of the set.

[mrvster]

Jared.....


i beleive the brown om should be on a "sub-set" list, cause those cards are printer scraps, hand cut and NOT distributed in packs....

Cobb was prob a sales promotion or distributed in tins in an extremely limited/promotion/sales sample ect......

IRONICALLY- most upside down backs were errors and were printed at the factory, factory cut, and distributed in actual packs...some upside down backs(like an om i own) are actually printer scrap(not to be confusing), and are really hand cut cards like Chris b's 4 back up om, or Jamie B.'s sister upside down om off prob the same sl sheet


BROWN LENOX- intentionally printed like red hindy......

SO- brown lenox is kinda like an upside down BACK !!!

THEY ARE BOTH TECHNICALLY FACTORY CUT BACKS!!

why is one on the list and not the other?????????????????????




i think 2 back lists may solve these issues....



PACK DISTRIBUTED / NON ISSUED:


just a thought.........






pack distributed:





1)LENOX BROWN

2)BROADLEAF 460

3)UPSIDE DOWN BACK(can be any FACTORY CUT BACK) om, piedy ect(these can follow traditional back scarcities to determine rarities instead of re-listing)


3)UZIT

4)DRUM

5) HINDU RED

6)LENOX

7)BL 350(CLOSE W/ CB)

8) CAROLINA B(CLOSE W BL)

9) PIEDY 42

10)AB 460


then the rest.......


NON ISSUED:

1) TY COBB

2)BROWN OM

3)GHOST FRONT

4)GHOST BACK

5) NO NAME(TRUE NO NAME)

ECT ECT


Thoughts?????????????????????????????????????

[Blitzu]

Mrvster,

I can see your point and to a degree understand that maybe a non issued list vs a issued list could be contrived. Although, my qualifications for the current list were never solely about being factory issued or not. The basis for the list was being substantially unique to all the rest (even color variations, purposeful or not). That brings me back to my point that the upside down backs or upside down fronts are not unique in any other way from any current card already on the list. That's why they don't belong and this is why the browns, cobbs and blanks are currently on that list. They are all unique from any other known back.

Also, I'll say it one more time, who's to say the fronts weren't printed upside down on those?

[atx840]

What about the blank backs? Non issued I would say. Do we really consider the Br Lenox to be a color change approved by ALC or just a one off batch like the OMs?

Johnny maybe you need to start an error run/checklist subset

Being that there are plenty of blank backs, but no blank fronts I'd assume the fronts are printed first and upright. It's possible then that the sheet was flipped so the backs were added with the fronts upside down. This would lead to the backs being considered upside down.

[E93]

The upside down back is an error. The others are not.
JimB

P.S. The Cobb back does not appear to be a point of sale hand out promotion. Since half of the know examples have tobacco staining, it is fair to presume they were packaged with the tobacco/cigarettes. Ads dating from Feb/March 1910 advertising the brand suggest it came out two years before the tins that have tax stamps dating to 1912. My guess is the tins are a different brand from the "Ty Cobb: King of the Smoking Tobacco World" brand. I have an article that is going to be on T206resource.com soon that goes into more detail on these issues.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by E93

The upside down back is an error. The others are not.
JimB

P.S. The Cobb back does not appear to be a point of sale hand out promotion. Since half of the know examples have tobacco staining, it is fair to presume they were packaged with the tobacco/cigarettes. Ads dating from Feb/March 1910 advertising the brand suggest it came out two years before the tins that have tax stamps dating to 1912. My guess is the tins are a different brand from the "Ty Cobb: King of the Smoking Tobacco World" brand. I have an article that is going to be on T206resource.com soon that goes into more detail on these issues.

Makes sense, and no known ty cobb packs have been located? That would be a very important find.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by atx840

For me a full back run has all backs up to and including the BL460.

An Ultra back run should add non production cards but not include "errors". This consists of the blank back and both Br Lenox/OM. I don't consider either one an intentional production color change, possibly more of a test run.

So then you feel Red-Hindu is also a test run? If you pull Brown Lenox you might as well pull Red-Hindu. We know about as much about why Hindu got put out in Red as we know about why Lenox got issued in Brown.....just a thought...

[atx840]

Never thought about the reds, I guess due to them being not overly rare considering and multiple examples of each (I think) this was a deliberate change similar to the apple greens.

A Br Lenox and Black Lenox can be found with the same front (Cobb off, Jordan, Lajoie etc) but not with the Hindus or apples. I feel this brown batch was a test or wrong color put on one/two or sheets and that's it.

I also am a novice to these types of things

[E93]

My guess is that they ran out of black ink on one of the runs and said, "WTF, lets just run some with brown until we get more black ink tomorrow." Of course this is conjecture, but if something like that is true, it would make it a legit back variation. I think Wonka (Hi John), makes a great comparison with the red Hindus.
JimB

[atx840]

I agree it most definitely is a true back variation and not considered an error. I also think its different then the red Hindu or apple backs as those variations are exclusive to specific players for their colors. Br Lenox are not.

[mrvster]

...please play around / add/ delete move ect...

rarity ranking....i say rarity because they are ALL rare....

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE AND I'm GOING TO TAKE A STABBER and half asleep



note: these errors are GENERAL classifications...


I HAVE A SNOW FLAKE THEORY....each printer scrap is unique unto itself..and can vary greatly in value....they are so rare that price cannot be determined and rarity is a relative term...some just can not be classified such as my kruger scraps, and multiple problem / one of a kind scraps, they are just un classifiable, too many issues with the card...these cards are in a catagory by themself...IMPOSSIBLE

MAYBE MULTI - WHAMMYS?????????????????



HERE we GO:


1) brown om or cobb(both same rarity)


2)blank backed proof with design change(leon's matty)

3)blank back proof w no design change


4) ghost image front different player/overprint /multi stamp / print ect(CAN BE SCRAP OR FACT ISSUED)*****not "wet stacked" and ACTUALLY PRINTED

example: downey overprint front/ my bender/ my chance cycle over print front ect....

5) ghost image back overprint/multi print( CAN BE SCRAP OR FACT ISSUED) ****not wet stacked....WEIMER, CHANCE, GILBERT, anything directly PRINTED at factory


6) top to bottom front miscut showing a different player(like jamie hull's example) can be scrap or factory cut, they are just impossible

7) full caption jump(del howard/randall) totally outside border and in picture

8)front player miscut side to side showing another player being able to destinguish the player(either fact cut or scrap, they are near impossible)


9) severe front miscut top to bottom (jordan/knight)


10) all missing color scrap- ghost faces/ sever color missing

11)yellow browns / depeds on back/amount of color missing

12) blank back problems on front

13) blank back no problems on front

14)upside down printer scraps/ 4 or 2 backs ect(have to be PRINT SCRAP since we have to include a fact cut example on the mainsteam list( 4 backs are tufer than 2




the top 14 listed are near impossible cards and i'm sure i'm missing some / tired right now....here are the "less " dramatic sub set
15) missing magentas


16) fact back stamp

17) front miscut showing different player name

18) severe back miscuts 25% or more (top to bottom tufer than side to side)

19) double exposure front ghosts w next player negative present on either side or top to bottom, they are tufer

20)double exposure ghost front same player

21) missing color (magentas) fact cut- sweeney no b boston players ect

22) font/plate problems- hemphill, nodgrass, ect

23) printers crop marks, the bigger the better

24) missing color pass one or more cards are fact cut

25) side to side miscut front small portion/top to bottom front not as tuf as side to side


26) color variations orange back grounds quality control/color shifts/ drunken registers

27) wet stacked fronts/backs(the more dramatic the better)

28) same player name top to bottom front(full name at top and bottom scarcer)



remember, this is just a rough draft slapped together, please add delete move or help

PEACE

JOHNNY v

[Blitzu]

Johnny, I respect the time and effort you put into that list but I think you're comparing apples to orangs and have strayed too far from the concept of a "back" list. I still don't see any reason why the current list needs to modified. Nothing new has been identified to prompt a change. But, for a sublist it's nice.

Jared

[Rob D.]

The idea that one of the larger lithographic companies in the United States ran out of black ink is indeed an interesting theory.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

The idea that one of the larger lithographic companies in the United States ran out of black ink is indeed an interesting theory.

Anything is possible. Alternatively, maybe someone running the press one night grabbed dark brown instead of black by mistake. Either way they would be legitimate variations.

On a related note, I think we will find many more examples of the brown Lenox back. It is only very recently becoming widely known in the hobby, and I am sure there are examples that have gone unnoticed in collections for decades.
JimB

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by E93

On a related note, I think we will find many more examples of the brown Lenox back.

Anything is possible.

It would be fun to see many more surface and hit the auction blocks.

[mrvster]

I only think that UPSIDE DOWN BACK FACTORY CUT NEEDS TO BE ADDED to the mainstream list above uzit....the other list IS AN ALTERNATIVE LIST
i think your missing the point....

UPSIDE DOWN BACK NEEDS TO BE ADDED(doesn't matter if a 4 back or 2 or 3, can even be a scrap if there is controversy)!!!!! imho above uzit or right at bl 460/ actually rarer than bl 460 imho come to think about it...............Why have Brown old mill cobb and blank back on the mainstream list???????????? all 3 weren't even issued to be distributed in packs????? most upside down backs (except for the printers scrap if u are able to differentiate) are FACTORY CUT.....they have more of a right to be on the list than the others listed above, heck, someone got them in a pack and probably tossed them cause they were "defective"......

Jared, i think your resistant to change in all due respect.....

CHANGE MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND....


how do we improve lists and things in our life if we don't change??

years ago no one cared about t206 errors and alot of collectors didn't give a crap about rare back t206, now look at them

Yes- things have changed....collectors become more educated when more info is shared and we have forums like this, brainstorming, free flowing ideas, the internet, talking with other knowledgeable and expereinced collectors ...

and yes being wrong(cause i am wrong sometimes)....but this time i know i'm right


AND THANK GOD T206 RESOURCE.COM!!!

i can finally reference backs/checklists etc because i'm a little unorganized sometimes...

Jared- i love your input, but that error list was my feeble attempt to classify and organize a semi cohesive list of all these freaks around meLOL


thoughts???


help????

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I only think that UPSIDE DOWN BACK FACTORY CUT NEEDS TO BE ADDED to the mainstream list above uzit....the other list IS AN ALTERNATIVE LIST
i think your missing the point....

UPSIDE DOWN BACK NEEDS TO BE ADDED(doesn't matter if a 4 back or 2 or 3, can even be a scrap if there is controversy)!!!!! imho above uzit or right at bl 460/ actually rarer than bl 460 imho come to think about it...............Why have Brown old mill cobb and blank back on the mainstream list???????????? all 3 weren't even issued to be distributed in packs????? most upside down backs (except for the printers scrap if u are able to differentiate) are FACTORY CUT.....they have more of a right to be on the list than the others listed above, heck, someone got them in a pack and probably tossed them cause they were "defective"......

Jared, i think your resistant to change in all due respect.....

CHANGE MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND....


how do we improve lists and things in our life if we don't change??

years ago no one cared about t206 errors and alot of collectors didn't give a crap about rare back t206, now look at them

Yes- things have changed....collectors become more educated when more info is shared and we have forums like this, brainstorming, free flowing ideas, the internet, talking with other knowledgeable and expereinced collectors ...

and yes being wrong(cause i am wrong sometimes)....but this time i know i'm right


AND THANK GOD T206 RESOURCE.COM!!!

i can finally reference backs/checklists etc because i'm a little unorganized sometimes...

Jared- i love your input, but that error list was my feeble attempt to classify and organize a semi cohesive list of all these freaks around meLOL


thoughts???


help????

Mrvster,

With all due respect I believe I have already addressed all of your questions in my early posts if you read them. Not resistant to change so long as there is a reason for it. Just wanting the upside down backs on there isn't enough since it doesn't fit with the overall premiss of current list. So I'll say it once more though. Being factory cut or not isn't the reason that lists exists. It exists because all of the cards on that list are substantially different from anything else on the list whether it be by it's print or it's color. An upside back does not belong on the list because it is no different than any other card on the list and I can prove it to you.

Here's how, every card on the current list can stand on it's own, as being unique with no relation to the front of the card.

In point, why not add every player with a SC 150 factory 30 to the list? I mean, my SC 150 factory 30 Cobb is different from my SC 150 factory 30 young because of what's on the front of the card. That makes the back different, right? Does that sound reasonable? If so then we should be adding several hundreds if not thousands of cards to the back list!

When you think of it that's all that differentiates an upside down back from any other common card; it's what's on the front.

Where as back to my point that every card currently on the list stands on it's own as unique, regardless of what's on the front, hence it's called the back list.

One more example is if you put all the current cards on the back list, ungraded in a pile and asked someone to tell you how many different cards there are without flipping to the front, you should get the total number of cards on the table. Throw in a few upside down backs and the number won't change, why?

It goes back to there is nothing unique about an upside down back until you flip it over. Therefore it doesn't belong on the current list.

Jared

[mrvster]

Jared....


i respect your opinion, but i can't disagree more...


simply, then why are they called upside down BACKS????????????

Why does sgc grade them as such????????????????

because they are not "upside down fronts"....thats symantics......sgc does nt grade them as "UPSIDE DOWN FRONTS"

when we look at a card, we dont just look at the "back" we HAVE to look at it in relation to the obverse.........they are taken as a whole card.....

upside down back has more of a right to be on the list than cobb inmho, not just cause "i want to because i feel like it", but because it's not had any respect, when it deserves more respect than other backs.most came out of a pack, wether intentional or not, they exist and need to be in a t206 collection if you want a true back run...


BTW....you dont have to differentiate every player in the yellow browns/ that is RIDICULOUS, just include that as a back....



I AM A UPSIDE DOWN BACK ADVOCATELOL

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Jared....


i respect your opinion, but i can't disagree more...


simply, then why are they called upside down BACKS????????????

Why does sgc grade them as such????????????????

because they are not "upside down fronts"....thats symantics......sgc does nt grade them as "UPSIDE DOWN FRONTS"

when we look at a card, we dont just look at the "back" we HAVE to look at it in relation to the obverse.........they are taken as a whole card.....

upside down back has more of a right to be on the list than cobb inmho, not just cause "i want to because i feel like it", but because it's not had any respect, when it deserves more respect than other backs.most came out of a pack, wether intentional or not, they exist and need to be in a t206 collection if you want a true back run...


BTW....you dont have to differentiate every player in the yellow browns/ that is RIDICULOUS, just include that as a back....



I AM A UPSIDE DOWN BACK ADVOCATELOL

It's still only upside down because of the front . A cobb back is a cobb back because of the back.

I respect your opinion as well, even if I disagree. Good luck with your advocacy

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Jared....


i respect your opinion, but i can't disagree more...


simply, then why are they called upside down BACKS????????????

Why does sgc grade them as such????????????????

because they are not "upside down fronts"....thats symantics......sgc does nt grade them as "UPSIDE DOWN FRONTS"

when we look at a card, we dont just look at the "back" we HAVE to look at it in relation to the obverse.........they are taken as a whole card.....

upside down back has more of a right to be on the list than cobb inmho, not just cause "i want to because i feel like it", but because it's not had any respect, when it deserves more respect than other backs.most came out of a pack, wether intentional or not, they exist and need to be in a t206 collection if you want a true back run...


BTW....you dont have to differentiate every player in the yellow browns/ that is RIDICULOUS, just include that as a back....



I AM A UPSIDE DOWN BACK ADVOCATELOL

Johnny,

I like your logic.

Personally, I collect nothing but T206's that have BOTH an upside-down front AND an upside-down back.

Scott

[mrvster]

You are the man!!LOL

[teetwoohsix]

A few things came to mind (hey Johnny ) when I read the title of the thread.

Some people do a back run of a certain player-in that case you'd have to know for a fact there was an upsidedown back for that player.

Some people's back run will simply consist of one of each tobacco brand. Some people take it a little further and want an example of each factory from each tobacco brand.

Then you have people who love the freaks and of course, that's where an upsidedown back fits into the picture. If you collect these types of cards, then I see no reason you can't create a list (as Johnny did) of scarcity- IMO EVERY freak card is a rarity in itself- many only one to a handful known- and the ones who collect these cards would be the ones to know the scarcity and the ones able to rank the difficulty.

I guess my long winded point was to say it depends on what "type" of back run one is doing because not everyone does the same type of back run.

Cool thread, I love the topic.

Sincerely, Clayton

[mrvster]

MY friend great points

Your absolutely right....a player back run w/ an upside down back might be impossible, but i mean more of the upside down as part of a back collection.....like getting all the backs....then a upside down is a must....

kinda like having a blank back, or a brown om in a back collection(collector trying to acquire all the backs).....

Thanks for your input and your opinion is very important....

Jared,

thanks for brining out some great points, and i love your opinions..

I'm THE FREAK ADVOCATE