Any Opinions on the Helmar cards on Ebay ?

[DixieBaseball]

Love them ! I don't actively collect them, but do have a few pieces in my collection. They make a nice filler for a tough HOFer in your collection if you ever want to pay less. (For example : Turkey Stearnes)

[DixieBaseball]

I also like them because of the limited examples made. They will not overproduce anything, including this example :

[sirraffles]

@forgerelli: I'm glad that you like them but we definitely won't be making any reprints. For one, it would undermine the cards that we are already doing. Secondly, if you think about it the cards are not expensive at all. For example, consider our card #52 in the R319-Helmar series, Hall of Famer Wilbert Robinson. A collector could have cornered the market and purchased all six that have been available for only $125.

@joeadcock: Well, in the future they will be vintage, too. And I can't imagine that they won't hold value. Consider that no Helmar hand-made card will ever have a population of more than half that of the famous T206 Wagner.

@J.McMurray: Helmar did make cards that were included within bags of potato chips and caramel corn. Now we hand-make cards in very, very small numbers.

@T206dk: If you'd like real information instead of "someone said", then just ask. No, the cards are not made in sweatshops in some third world country. They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs. One of our artists, Sanjay Verma, does live in India. He is the National Award Winner there and often represents the country for foreign traveling Exhibitions. He is one of the best in the world at what he does and I am honored to work with him. He is also a really good guy. As for your fantasy that you are "pretty sure" that arch fiends are copying our Wagner card and selling them by the dozen at "flea markets"... you are better than that! We do, by the way, keep hi-res scans of every single card that has been made.

@everyone else: Thanks for your interest, your comments and your compliments. I'll post another of our Boston Garter style cards in a couple weeks since you seem to enjoy them. thanks, Charles

[dabigyankeeman]

Some of the Helmar cards i have seen on Ebay are really very nice looking, and not being reprints i actually could be tempted to buy some Yankees, but not at the prices they are going for, no way. I cant believe how much money some people are willing to pay for these things.

[npa589]

I've watched these for a while now, and though I'll never buy them - it's brilliant business, and very creative. I respect the creativity, and just hope that sirraffles is being truthful when he says that he has only one account.I also hope there isn't a shill bidding party going on, since,technically, it may be other people within the business who could be bidding them up and getting the prices higher, and he could still say "he had only one account". If the items are being driven up with shillers, I hope the whole organization deteriorates. If not, I wish them continued success.

[cardhog]

@T206dk: "...They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs... thanks, Charles" (aka Sir Raffles)

Except that the MMA does not use a "press" - they use an Epson inkjet printer. And Helmar Brewing does not use a press, you use an inkjet printer too!
The portasite.com priceguide says:
"...they are worthless as collectibles. No matter how attractive they look, they can have no collectible value. The first reason is that there is an unlimited print run, and anyone can reproduce them cheaply. The second (and more important) reason is that digital inks are water-soluble, and the air is filled with tiny molecules of water, which eventually dissolves the ink. Light also breaks down these inks, as does ozone – two things which are omnipresent, even in the most controlled environment. These factors will incrementally destroy the ink, starting with fading and blurring, loss of detail, and a “washed out” look. Eventually, the image will vanish. All of this will occur within somewhere between 10 and 100 years in a museum setting, much sooner at home. So these type of cards will not survive long enough to acquire any age-related value. In fact, it is the exact opposite: Unlike “real” cards, which appreciate in value with age, any value assigned to these type of cards will go down with age as their condition slowly degrades. They are most “valuable” when they are brand new, and it goes down from there. Which is contrary to the whole idea of “collecting” cards, and is also why they are not considered collectible."
Nothing produced on an inkjet is a collectible, period. It's like collecting fruit - it eventually goes bad and starts to stink! And Sir Raffles knows the difference between an ink jet printer and a 12 head press, which starts at over $1 million.... Gadzooks!

Bob All.en

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cardhog

@T206dk: "...They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs... thanks, Charles" (aka Sir Raffles)

Except that the MMA does not use a "press" - they use an Epson inkjet printer. And Helmar Brewing does not use a press, you use an inkjet printer too!
The portasite.com priceguide says:
"...they are worthless as collectibles. No matter how attractive they look, they can have no collectible value. The first reason is that there is an unlimited print run, and anyone can reproduce them cheaply. The second (and more important) reason is that digital inks are water-soluble, and the air is filled with tiny molecules of water, which eventually dissolves the ink. Light also breaks down these inks, as does ozone – two things which are omnipresent, even in the most controlled environment. These factors will incrementally destroy the ink, starting with fading and blurring, loss of detail, and a “washed out” look. Eventually, the image will vanish. All of this will occur within somewhere between 10 and 100 years in a museum setting, much sooner at home. So these type of cards will not survive long enough to acquire any age-related value. In fact, it is the exact opposite: Unlike “real” cards, which appreciate in value with age, any value assigned to these type of cards will go down with age as their condition slowly degrades. They are most “valuable” when they are brand new, and it goes down from there. Which is contrary to the whole idea of “collecting” cards, and is also why they are not considered collectible."
Nothing produced on an inkjet is a collectible, period. It's like collecting fruit - it eventually goes bad and starts to stink! And Sir Raffles knows the difference between an ink jet printer and a 12 head press, which starts at over $1 million.... Gadzooks!

Bob All.en

So much just plain wrong here.

So you think this
http://store.metmuseum.org/limited-e...4#.UxkQnzeYaUk

Came off an Epson inkjet?
It's bigger than 17x22, the largest size the big Epsons can handle.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...sku=CA61201-VM

Next, scroll dawn to the ink section for that printer.
"Fade Resistance / Print Longevity:
•Color: Up to 200 years
•Black-and-white: Over 200 years"

That's an expected life of 200 years. The footnote says indoors under glass and will vary depending on the medium. (Print on newsprint and 200 years is probably very optimistic. Print on something largely inert like Mylar- 200 years is probably going to be a bit low. )

I have items in my collection that were printed in inks designed to be ruined by water. They're over 100 years old and still look fine. (British stamps printed using fugitive inks so an attempt to soak or steam them off would ruin them.)

I also have stuff that's done by simple off the shelf home use inkjet that's around 20 years old and doing just fine.

The argument that they have no value because they can be reprinted is the same bogus argument Beckett has pushed against unlicensed cards for years.
Guess which is harder to find
1) Any particular unlicensed card from 1988
2) Any particular card from Topps, Fleer, or Donruss main sets from 1988.

If you answer 1, we need to talk because I've got a few I need.
And Upper Deck was caught twice reprinting their own cards. Ok, actually one reprinting, one essentially counterfeiting.

There are printing companies that have the big presses. There's no need for someone to own their own. And Multi color presses run a bit more than a million. Modern 5 color presses start around 2.3 million new.

I don't have any Helmars yet. They do seem to go for a bit more than I'd pay.


Steve Birmingham