This looks interesting indeed

[ullmandds]

Wow...what a forgiving lot?!?!

Not even an apology? We're listening to what our customers want...meaning for HOC/HS not to shill their own auctions and basically rob their customers of their hard earned cash?

And from this moment on...we're not going to steal your $$$ anymore?!?!

And many of you are ok with this...end of story? WOW!

[ullmandds]

I must admit this silence is deafening to me.

[rainier2004]

Peter, I know from your posts you are a much more educated and overall experienced collector than myself. But for me, I am tired of not being listened to with legitimate concerns such as the one with h/s auctions. Bill changed his policies and apologized...my inexperience leaves me somewhat historically uneducated, but at this point I was happy Bill changed. If the cards I want are at a good price, I have no reservations on bidding.

Steven Suckow

[Kenny Cole]

Legitimate point, but, as you know, stuff triumphs over everything else. EOS.

[Runscott]

Steven, I will defend the way Chris handles his customers at Heritage - I can guarantee you that he goes overboard trying to resolve issues, and I didn't see anything in your posts here or your PM's with me that indicated otherwise. If I had known that he was going to get attacked repeatedly after trying to resolve your situation, I would never have suggested you contact him. You apparently did so with your line drawn in the sand, and any response by him that fell short of what you demanded was going to result in your taking the issue to this board, and then apparently never letting go of it. I don't think that's fair.

I'm sure I'll regret not avoiding this train-wreck.

[iggyman]

KRAMER: What did you go up there to heckle her for?

JERRY: Because she came down to the club and heckled me! Give her a taste of her own medicine!

KRAMER: Oh, YEAH! You gave her a taste of medicine, alright.

JERRY: Well, I didn’t want her to have an accident.

GEORGE: What accident?

KRAMER: Well, after he heckled Toby, she got so upset, she ran out of the building and a street sweeper ran over her foot and severed her pinky toe.

GEORGE: That’s unbelievable!

KRAMER: Yeah! Then after the ambulance left, I found the toe! So I put it in a Cracker Jack box, filled it with ice, and took off for the hospital.

GEORGE: You ran?

KRAMER: No, I jumped on the bus. I told the driver, “I got a toe here, buddy – step on it.”

GEORGE: Holy cow!

KRAMER: Yeah, yeah, then all of a sudden, this guy pulls out a gun. Well, I knew any delay is gonna cost her her pinky toe, so I got out of the seat and I started walking towards him. He says, “Where do you think you’re going, Cracker Jack?” I said, “Well, I got a little prize for ya, buddy – ” – knocked him out cold!

GEORGE: How could you do that?!

KRAMER: Then everybody is screamin,’ because the driver, he’s passed out from all the commotion…the bus is out of control! So, I grab him by the collar, I take him out of the seat, I get behind the wheel and now I’m drivin’ the bus.

GEORGE: You’re Batman.

KRAMER: Yeah. Yeah, I am Batman. Then the mugger, he comes to, and he starts chokin’ me! So I’m fightin’ him off with one hand and I kept drivin’ the bus with the other, y’know? Then I managed to open up the door, and I kicked him out the door with my foot, you know – at the next stop.

JERRY: You kept makin’ all the stops?

KRAMER: Well, people kept ringin’ the bell!

GEORGE: Well, what about the toe? What happened to the toe?

KRAMER: Well! I am happy to say that the little guy is back in place at the end of the line.

GEORGE: You did all this…for a pinky toe?

KRAMER: Well, it’s a valuable appendage.

Lovely Day...

[rainier2004]

Scott - No trainwreck, pm sent. Won't happen again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Scott - No trainwreck, pm sent. Won't happen again.

Thanks Steven, and thanks for the PM. No problem - this is definitely the place to air your concerns.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Peter, I know from your posts you are a much more educated and overall experienced collector than myself. But for me, I am tired of not being listened to with legitimate concerns such as the one with h/s auctions. Bill changed his policies and apologized...my inexperience leaves me somewhat historically uneducated, but at this point I was happy Bill changed. If the cards I want are at a good price, I have no reservations on bidding.

Steven Suckow

Does anyone wonder whether the change would have been made had this thread not been started ?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by T206DK

Does anyone wonder whether the change would have been made had this thread not been started ?

Of course everyone knows that this "issue" wouldn't have changed b/c in their eyes, they were doing nothing wrong. Things like this or just things in general don't get changed without people pointing out the possible wrongdoing effect it will have on their business and/or the community.

How does anything with possible unethical implications get changed? Through the masses voting it to change or peer pressure or mind changing in general. I'm just glad that the President of H&S was listening and made the proper adjustments...I give him full credit for that.

For the record, I do believe it is wrong to bid on their auctions like they were doing, but I can honestly see both sides of the spectrum.

Mik/e C.a.vv.e.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by T206DK

Does anyone wonder whether the change would have been made had this thread not been started ?

I guess my whole point is/was I was glad he was listening and made the change...probably wouldnt have made the change otherwise. As far as HOC goes, I have never won a lot there, and still do not agree with those practices and will not bid.

Kudos to Dan for the thread in the first place and initiating change. Lots of things bother me in this world...I dont know Mr Huggins personally, but Id like to believe he'll keep his word. Just my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Wow...what a forgiving lot?!?!

Not even an apology? We're listening to what our customers want...meaning for HOC/HS not to shill their own auctions and basically rob their customers of their hard earned cash?

And from this moment on...we're not going to steal your $$$ anymore?!?!

And many of you are ok with this...end of story? WOW!

There was no shill bidding here. Shill bidding is placing a bid for the purpose of bumping a bidder who has a max bid to a higher level. You are wrong to accuse Bill Huggins of unethical conduct. You may have a legitimate disagreement with him about the practice of house accounts bidding to win, but to leap from there to accusing him of being unethical is just wrong. It is unfortunate that others who agree with me will not speak up.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was no shill bidding here. Shill bidding is placing a bid for the purpose of bumping a bidder who has a max bid to a higher level. You are wrong to accuse Bill Huggins of unethical conduct. You may have a legitimate disagreement with him about the practice of house accounts bidding to win, but to leap from there to accusing him of being unethical is just wrong. It is unfortunate that others who agree with me will not speak up.

Peter.

Facts speak louder than words. Not accusing H&S of anything nefarious, but the fact remains that every time they bid a lot up, they screwed the other bidders. Glad that he's stopped it, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. End of story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Peter.

Facts speak louder than words. Not accusing H&S of anything nefarious, but the fact remains that every time they bid a lot up, they screwed the other bidders. Glad that he's stopped it, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. End of story.

I don't agree Kenny. If someone is willing to pay more than I am, I don't feel screwed, I feel outbid. It doesn't matter to me if the higher bidder is inside or outside, if the bid is legitimate.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although the posts and the response seem to indicate that it is in the minority. Everything that I would say has already been said, but my thought is that if I'm outbid by an actual bidder, then I'm outbid. If I'm outbid by the house because it didn't get what they were hoping for, or I won it for more than I should have paid because I got bid up by the auction house, then IMO, I got screwed. Most posters here seem to agree

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny I have no doubt that I am in the minority in terms of being OK with house bidding (to win, not to bump), but also no doubt that others who are unwilling to post see it my way. In the end, it is just as you say, a matter of opinion. My main point is to clarify that whatever H&S was doing, it was not -- as far as we know -- shill bidding as that term is commonly used and understood.

[Kenny Cole]

And that is where we will have to agree to diverge, opinionwise, because I don't think it is OK at all. When the bid to win is because the prior bid seems too low, or when the bid to win ends up simply being a bump on the way to a higher bid, I view that as a problem. If you seriously don't, then I suppose that's fine. When I decide to personally auction some of my stuff, remind me to make sure you know about it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kenny I have no doubt that I am in the minority in terms of being OK with house bidding (to win, not to bump), but also no doubt that others who are unwilling to post see it my way. In the end, it is just as you say, a matter of opinion. My main point is to clarify that whatever H&S was doing, it was not -- as far as we know -- shill bidding as that term is commonly used and understood.

Every time they bid and don't win it is no different than a shill bid, and how would anyone here know that they were bid up essentially by the house? They wouldn't. I don't care what their intent was if the auctioneer is bidding it is illegal, and I don't really care for the legal technicality that HOC and H&S are separate businesses, they are owned by the same person.

Peter, I think you are in a bigger minority than you think you are...what would keep anyone from speaking up for H&S if they thought it was okay? I actually think more people are not speaking up who believe that it was shill bidding because they don't want to lose their bidding privileges...if H&S is as thin skinned as the folks from Heritage that's a real possibility.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree Kenny. If someone is willing to pay more than I am, I don't feel screwed, I feel outbid. It doesn't matter to me if the higher bidder is inside or outside, if the bid is legitimate.

Hi POLLYANNA

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Hi POLLYANNA

LOL that is refreshing, as I am so often accused of being cynical. Thanks!!

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Peter.

Facts speak louder than words. Not accusing H&S of anything nefarious, but the fact remains that every time they bid a lot up, they screwed the other bidders. Glad that he's stopped it, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. End of story.

I'm stunned that there are collectors who apparently think this is no biggie and now that the policy has changed everything is ok. Has anyone asked whether or not House ofcards does the same type pf thing with their Ebay auctions.
In my opinion it is certainly unethical for an auction house to bid on their own auctions.

Dave Krabal

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Wow...what a forgiving lot?!?!

Not even an apology? We're listening to what our customers want...meaning for HOC/HS not to shill their own auctions and basically rob their customers of their hard earned cash?

And from this moment on...we're not going to steal your $$$ anymore?!?!

And many of you are ok with this...end of story? WOW!

Now that Mr. Huggins has responded to forum opinion and changed the policy, what more of true substance can he do to correct the situation? Submit to flogging? Cut off his ear and send it to you? Just curious.

[ullmandds]

Well Golly Gee...an apology would be nice?

[ullmandds]

Admission of wrong doing would be nice?!

[ullmandds]

I'm done with this "discussion!"

It seems I am in the minority here of those that expect more from the businesses we deal with in this hobby and beyond. I expect honesty and integrity...and when someone F$cks up...I expect an apology...and then I can and usually do...move on!

I used to go to house of cards when I lived in MD back in the 90's and I always enjoyed my experiences there. Personally...H & S hardly ever offers anything in their auctions that I'm interested in...so I will most likely never bid in their auctions anyway.

I'm just a bit sick and tired of the mentality that has been propogating that businesses can rip people off at will...until they get caught...and then they just stop without any repercussions.

So I'll just group H&S/HOC with the Madolphs...and the banks...and most of the finance world that basically raped the country of their money...with nary a slap on the wrist!

God Bless America!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

So I'll just group H&S/HOC with the Madolphs...and the banks...and most of the finance world that basically raped the country of their money...with nary a slap on the wrist!

God Bless America!

Occupy Huggins & Scott!!!

[kcohen]

I said "of substance." Such window dressing changes nothing. Reasonable people are satisfied with a resolution to a problem. Declare victory and move on.

[sox1903wschamp]

The first two words out of the President of a Major Auction house's mouth to his Customers were "so look'. What was the movie....Jerry Maguire I think that had a great line in the movie of "you had me at hello".

When I read his first two words, he did not have me because it sounded like he was "put off" in having to deal with this issue. I am in sales and if I sent out a mass note to my irate customer base and started my note the same way, I would expect to lose numerous customer's in the near future.

Don't get me wrong, its good the issue appears to be fixed but the communication came across (IMO) about as "sincere as a spider" and as loyal customers of his auction house, we deserved more respect.

Michael S*%@tee@le

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

The first two words out of the President of a Major Auction house's mouth to his Customers were "so look'. What was the movie....Jerry Maguire I think that had a great line in the movie of "you had me at hello".

When I read his first two words, he did not have me because it sounded like he was "put off" in having to deal with this issue. I am in sales and if I sent out a mass note to my irate customer base and started my note the same way, I would expect to lose numerous customer's in the near future.

Don't get me wrong, its good the issue appears to be fixed but the communication came across (IMO) about as "sincere as a spider" and as loyal customers of his auction house, we deserved more respect.

Michael S*%@tee@le

I'm with you Michael. To start out with "so look" seemed very put off to me, much like I was treated for an issue I had with H&S last year, there was nothing about the issue I had last year or this issue that made me really think they were sincerely sorry. I am with Peter also, A sincere apology would have been at least a start instead of starting it with "so look". That just sounds very stand offish.

Chr...s Sh-- r e...ve

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by sox1903wschamp

The first two words out of the President of a Major Auction house's mouth to his Customers were "so look'. What was the movie....Jerry Maguire I think that had a great line in the movie of "you had me at hello".

When I read his first two words, he did not have me because it sounded like he was "put off" in having to deal with this issue. I am in sales and if I sent out a mass note to my irate customer base and started my note the same way, I would expect to lose numerous customer's in the near future.

Don't get me wrong, its good the issue appears to be fixed but the communication came across (IMO) about as "sincere as a spider" and as loyal customers of his auction house, we deserved more respect.

Michael S*%@tee@le

+1

[Fred]

I understand where some people are with this.

Ok, somebody got busted with their hand(s) in the cookie jar and after saying it won't happen again we're all just supposed to pretend like it never happened. I think the point a few people are trying to make is that this is something that shouldn't get swept under the carpet and forgotten about. This is something that impacts our hobby and hobbyist.

The way I figure, this is going to be on the minds of people after this thread goes to the bottom of the forum page and then off the main forum page. I'm guessing HOC and H&S would just wish it went away.

Maybe they ought to try and figure a way to smooth things over (monetarily). Drop he BP on the next auction to 5% (or something like that). Show the BUYERS/BIDDERS in their auctions that this is thier way of making amends for the MANY that felt slighted on this. There's nothing unethical about giving back to the hobby (and hobbyist) in a show of appreciation and gratitude.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Admission of wrong doing would be nice?!

yeah, I agree. an admision and an apology would be nice. It almost seems like they are mad that this was discovered....like someone ruined their good thing

[sb1]

We do not bid on any lots in our auction(could have sworn we had that in print, but I guess not), the statement has been made previously and still holds true. And since we don't have any employees, you don't have to worry about them either.

Also, we use the same software provider/auction platform as REA. So you can feel equally comfortable on our auction venue as well.


Scott

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sb1

We do not bid on any lots in our auction(could have sworn we had that in print, but I guess not), the statement has been made previously and still holds true. And since we don't have any employees, you don't have to worry about them either.

Also, we use the same software provider/auction platform as REA. So you can feel equally comfortable on our auction venue as well.


Scott

It is under our Market Strategy section and has been there since day one on our website, http://www.b-lauctions.com/market.html . As we recall we started our auction company in the heyday of some investigations. As far as I know we have the only written rule allowing for auditing of our records by a third party, if there ever is any question as to our auction bidding. I knew we had that rule concerning auction house bidding and missed it in our our "rules" page too.. I will work on getting a section added there in addition to where it is now. But again, been set in writing since day one. regards

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Now that Mr. Huggins has responded to forum opinion and changed the policy, what more of true substance can he do to correct the situation? Submit to flogging? Cut off his ear and send it to you? Just curious.

Leave the ear. Send cannoli.