This looks interesting indeed

[atx840]

Yes collateral damage is the risk they could be taking.

I can't seen any advantage in paying a BP from one hand to the other. Keeping it simple.

You have $20 in your right hand.

Right hand gives the $20 to the left hand, you still have $20.
Right hand does not give $20 to the left hand, you still have $20

-$20 spent + $20 made = $0 profit
$20 saved + -$20 earned = $0 profit

[ValKehl]

Paying the BP from one company to the other obviously affects how much profit each company makes at the end of the day/month/year. Even if the same individuals own both companies, this will make a difference in each individual's profit, unless each of the individuals owns the same percentage of both companies, which I doubt is the case.
Val

[mordecaibrown]

Chris -

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are over simplifying this and not looking at whole picture.

1) Does H&S take a percentage from the consigner? Lets just assume its 10% (as I have no idea if they do and if so, what the percentage would be - simple assumption for illustration purposes).

They bid $600 on it, but it only cost them $540, because they got $60 from consignor. All of a sudden that profit Erick showed earlier just grew from $28 to $88.

2) When HOC bids in a H&S auction, the only possible scenarios is H&S benefits.

Either - they increase the bid amount; therefore, directly increasing the buyers premium. If current bid is $200 (H&S makes $39 - 19.5% buyers premium). If they make a bid of $300 and are outbid by another bidder max bid, the new high bid is $330 (H&S makes $64.35 on buyers premium). They just made $25 by simply making a bid. Do you make $25 (or any money) by making a bid in the auction? This profit amount increases with the value of the item.

OR - they win the item at a discount versus other bidders. If they win an item at $200 and pay the 19.5% buyers premium and receive a consignors fee of 10%, then total cost = $239 - $20 = $219. Also, this assumes that they do pay the buyers premium, if you dont think they do because the two places are owned by the same person - then the savings increase!

When a bidder can only benefit from bidding in an auction thats a conflict of interest.

Any.y K.enne.dy

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by mordecaibrown

Chris -

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are over simplifying this and not looking at whole picture.

1) Does H&S take a percentage from the consigner? Lets just assume its 10% (as I have no idea if they do and if so, what the percentage would be - simple assumption for illustration purposes).

They bid $600 on it, but it only cost them $540, because they got $60 from consignor. All of a sudden that profit Erick showed earlier just grew from $28 to $88.

2) When HOC bids in a H&S auction, the only possible scenarios is H&S benefits.

Either - they increase the bid amount; therefore, directly increasing the buyers premium. If current bid is $200 (H&S makes $39 - 19.5% buyers premium). If they make a bid of $300 and are outbid by another bidder max bid, the new high bid is $330 (H&S makes $64.35 on buyers premium). They just made $25 by simply making a bid. Do you make $25 (or any money) by making a bid in the auction? This profit amount increases with the value of the item.

OR - they win the item at a discount versus other bidders. If they win an item at $200 and pay the 19.5% buyers premium and receive a consignors fee of 10%, then total cost = $239 - $20 = $219. Also, this assumes that they do pay the buyers premium, if you dont think they do because the two places are owned by the same person - then the savings increase!

When a bidder can only benefit from bidding in an auction thats a conflict of interest.

Any.y K.enne.dy

Hi Andy,
I'm not sure what you mean by over simplifying or the point that I am over simplifying is, but I agree with everything you are saying. For the record, I am of the opinion that this is a major conflict of interest and I am skeptical as to why HOC would buy those 1952 Topps cards to try and resell as they say.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining how I feel about this, but I think I am seeing the big picture. To me, it is a big conflict of interest and I personally don't buy the two different businesses they are trying to sell to people on the board.

Ahhh, I see you were talking about Chris B

ch...s Sh..-re-v..e

[Jaybird]

I think I'm done beating this horse. Last point other than to say that I won't be bidding at H&S anymore.


Bottom line, an item is worth a certain amount of money. H&S bidding on their own items allows them to bid up items close to that value. If an item is too low, they bid it up until it gets closer to the real value. If they lose, great. They get all the fees, etc. On the other side, if they win, they still get an item near the value of the item and then resell it on HOC. Even if they break even or lose at HOC, they can declare that loss or break even. I'm sure they make up any break even or loss (of which I don't think there is any) by all of their "losing" bids.

Let me make it clear that I don't know how many items they are bidding on. But I'm sure it is judicious and calculated. They aren't going to go crazy and win items way over value. They are going to get them right up there near the value that they think they can sell them for on HOC. But, if they can get a $1200 item for $1100 and then resell it for $1200, they make $100. If a buyer wins the item at $1000 (one increment lower), he breaks even.

I don't see how this can be a level playing field and I ain't playing on it anymore.

[pgellis]

How about these 2 lots?

http://jan12.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=41124

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-JGA-Jap...item53eb994c40

[mordecaibrown]

Vintage Chris - sorry for the confusion, yes we agree and I was referring to the other chris.

Jaybird - summed it up PERFECTLY.

In this case, maybe they took a shot and only made a little. The damage is in the lots that they place on the lots they DONT win. In those cases, they increased the bid price and therefore the buyers premium - making themselves more money. And you have NO idea - you think your in a bidding war with another bidder, but it could be the auction house.

There is no way of ever knowing when HOC is putting bids in on an item unless its the last winning bidder and then you see the cards on ebay in their store. How often do they bid on an auction raising a price to what they feel is acceptable and you never know?

A.ndy Ke.nned.y

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by pgellis

How about these 2 lots?

http://jan12.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=41124

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-JGA-Jap...item53eb994c40

From the same lot:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1985-Mi...ht_2329wt_1185

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1973-Ja...ht_2332wt_1165

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970s-Tokyo-...ht_2766wt_1165

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-c-1960s...ht_2664wt_1165

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by atx840

Yes collateral damage is the risk they could be taking.

I can't seen any advantage in paying a BP from one hand to the other. Keeping it simple.

You have $20 in your right hand.

Right hand gives the $20 to the left hand, you still have $20.
Right hand does not give $20 to the left hand, you still have $20

-$20 spent + $20 made = $0 profit
$20 saved + -$20 earned = $0 profit

0 profit but they have a $20% advantage over the person bidding next to them. So, if they get any item at a 20% discount, how do they not win that battle? And why would I play a game where the house has a 20% advantage? This isn't vegas and the potential to "win big" isn't even there.

They are able to own an item at a 20% savings over anyone else. If they take the next increment over anyone, bidding it up 10%, they still get the item at 10% less than previous bidder. Not a level playing field.

In math terms, the item is $1000 (bid by outside bidder). He stops because he knows he has to pay $1200. Auction house bids up to $1100. Since they don't have to pay premium, they still get it at $100 less than previous "REAL" bidder.

[atx840]

Im keep it simple on the BP side only as to clarify there is very little advantage to not paying a BP.

In theory HOC gets a lot for 20% less but then H&S is out that 20% buyers fee that every 3rd party bidder pays or would pay if they win.

So if H&S gets 10% of the hammer price from the consigner, who do you think pays that on the lots that HOC wins? HOC, so its not profit, either they get 10% from me or they get it from HOC. If they don't take their 10% and no BP then yes HOC gets the cards for 90% of the hammer price and a 20% BP savings. But now H&S is out that 10% and the 20%. I think its all even.

Now if they bid up and up and still don't win, then yes HOC is making H&S a profit on the 10% hammer price and the 20% BP for every increment they can raise it by.