Warning: Disturbing Autograph "Authentication" Material!

[vintagechris]

For me, it isn't so much the ratio of times the TPA's have gotten it wrong to how many times they have gotten it right, but the number of instances that keep popping up showing them being careless and not doing their job very well or barely actually examining an item. I have personally experienced this as well as seen other stories with examples of this.

The fact is, nobody can possibly know the % they get correct or wrong, so for anyone to say they get far more right than wrong is is just a statement of opinion, we just don't know the %. What we can see and is fact, is the number of times an authenticator is negligent in doing a poor job of examining an item by giving a thumbs up to a preprint, a secretarial or a photo copy, all of which should NEVER happen if you actually examine the item properly.

IMO, there is a big difference in TPA who will not answer any uestions about their practice and are trying to authenticate as many items as possible so they can make money and the TPA who really cares about the hobby and takes their time examining an item.

I believe Richard to be one of these guys who takes his time to examine an item because he cares about the hobby and values his reputation above a dollar. He will admit he has gotten some wrong in the past but I would feel more comfortable with him believing that he took the time to examine the item properly instead of just doing the assembly line process to authenticate as many items as possible because it means more money.

Edited to say, in the end, shouldn't we doubt more the guys who show they do a poor job by not examining things properly. Since we don't really know the ratio they get right, shouldn't we judge them on the things we do know?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

Since we don't really know the ratio they get right, shouldn't we judge them on the things we do know?

We do know they get a lot right. Go to eBay where there are thousands of TPA Mantles, Williams, DiMaggios, Koufaxs, Cobbs, Ruths, Jeters etc etc on display at any given time and see how many fakes you find. There might be a few clunkers that slipped through, but it would be a tiny percentage of the whole.

As I stated earlier, it's not about sweeping mistakes under the rug, but about addressing issues rationally and keeping it in perspective.

[RichardSimon]

Steve - We have known each other for a long time and I believe there is a mutual trust and liking between us.
That said, I have to rehash one old story that has been mentioned here before and you should judge it on its merits and think about how such a mistake could occur.
Hunt Auctions auctioned off a handwritten letter purportedly signed by Ed Delahanty. The signature on the letter read Ed Delehanty. PSA and JSA both gave this letter a full COA, despite the obvious misspelling of his last name. It eventually was proven that Ed's manager wrote out the full letter and signed it for Delahanty. It sold for $30,000. What motivates a TPA to authenticate such an item and to NOT note in the COA that the name is misspelled. Not one TPA but both leading TPA's.
I have always found this one particular incident to be troubling.
I have discussed other incidents here on the board. The Babe Ruth autographs that I sold that were rejected by PSA, though I had bought them from someone who at the time of Ruth's life was an in person collector. He hung out at the Ansonia Hotel where Ruth had a room for personal activities . This man became a close personal friend of mine and was the author of Freedom's Sword: The NAACP and the Struggle Against Racism in America, 1909-1969 by Gil Jonas.
But as I have stated in the past mistakes are part of the game and nobody is infallible. I would even think that, outside of boxing, their batting average is not bad in some categories.
But I still find the Delahanty letter incident to be very troubling in so many ways. And I doubt if there is anything that anyone can say that would make me change my mind about that.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Steve - We have known each other for a long time and I believe there is a mutual trust and liking between us.
That said, I have to rehash one old story that has been mentioned here before and you should judge it on its merits and think about how such a mistake could occur.
Hunt Auctions auctioned off a handwritten letter purportedly signed by Ed Delahanty. The signature on the letter read Ed Delehanty. PSA and JSA both gave this letter a full COA, despite the obvious misspelling of his last name. It eventually was proven that Ed's manager wrote out the full letter and signed it for Delahanty. It sold for $30,000. What motivates a TPA to authenticate such an item and to NOT note in the COA that the name is misspelled. Not one TPA but both leading TPA's.
I have always found this one particular incident to be troubling.
I have discussed other incidents here on the board. The Babe Ruth autographs that I sold that were rejected by PSA, though I had bought them from someone who at the time of Ruth's life was an in person collector. He hung out at the Ansonia Hotel where Ruth had a room for personal activities . This man became a close personal friend of mine and was the author of Freedom's Sword: The NAACP and the Struggle Against Racism in America, 1909-1969 by Gil Jonas.
But as I have stated in the past mistakes are part of the game and nobody is infallible. I would even think that, outside of boxing, their batting average is not bad in some categories.
But I still find the Delahanty letter incident to be very troubling in so many ways. And I doubt if there is anything that anyone can say that would make me change my mind about that.

Steve, this was the point I was trying to make. It's not the honest mistakes that bother me, it's the issues that should never happen, the issues that happen when they get sloppy that bother me.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

Steve, this was the point I was trying to make. It's not the honest mistakes that bother me, it's the issues that should never happen, the issues that happen when they get sloppy that bother me.

that is what burns me too, the shortcuts, calling a james jeffries autograph a james jeffers just because it was submitted on a sunday show and they had to get it authenticated by the end of the show. it was not even in jeffries hand, and the tom sharkey and james corbett werent either and they called them all good and called jeffries "jeffers"

it's what really bothers me, the slipshod work, that they call authentication, and it is commonplace, not an abberation or 1 out of 1000.

A few of us in boxing have had enough, but if there were basketball, football guys who had enough also, you would see more of their errors in those disciplines.

they arent particularly good in boxing, but not a lot can be said for the other sports either.


If it was just once in a blue moon, no one would care, at all.

but its not and the cheerleaders for these companies love the status quo, no reforms necessary.


but in my opinion, major reforms are necessary, and if not implemented, will be implemented for them as far as a market correction. just like mutual funds and their managers. people eventually will have enough. the market will correct and the guys who promised but couldn't deliver won't last. we saw it with gai.

[murphusa]

We are a funny bunch. Think about it, why should we worry about a few errors on an autograph opinion when we enshrine those we collect and they only succeed .277% of the time

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by murphusa

We are a funny bunch. Think about it, why should we worry about a few errors on an autograph opinion when we enshrine those we collect and they only succeed .277% of the time

You know what they say.....statistics are made up 58.5% of the time.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Steve - We have known each other for a long time and I believe there is a mutual trust and liking between us.

Absolutely!!

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

We do know they get a lot right. Go to eBay where there are thousands of TPA Mantles, Williams, DiMaggios, Koufaxs, Cobbs, Ruths, Jeters etc etc on display at any given time and see how many fakes you find. There might be a few clunkers that slipped through, but it would be a tiny percentage of the whole.

As I stated earlier, it's not about sweeping mistakes under the rug, but about addressing issues rationally and keeping it in perspective.

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. I never said they don't get a lot right. I said it is impossible to know the true ratio of good to bad. My issue is with the poor quality of work they put in at times. How do you know when you are getting their best examination? Why put so much trust in someone who does poor work? My issue is not with their % they get right or wrong, I personally don't know the %. I haven't seen all items authenticated by any company. I have seen lots of authenticated autos by TPA's that are good and bad. My big beef is their credentials and lack of quality control.

Take any of the big TPA's, you don't have a clue who is actually examining your item. How do you know the person examining an item is actually good at what they do?

And you seem to be glossing over the fact that they authenticate preprints. This should never ever happen. I mean never. It shouldn't be considered an honest mistake IMO but an outright fraud because they obviously didn't examine the item that someone paid them to examine. If you are getting paid to authenticate an item, you should be able to tell if it is a preprint by going through a thorough examination process. When these get passed, it is because they didn't do this, yet these are the people we trust to give our money to to authenticate something?

Just to emphasize, I get people will miss some forgeries, but to authenticate a preprint should absolutely never and I mean never happen. There is no excuse for it.

I'll give another example, if I'm building a house and I know one company is known to take short cuts and there is another one I believe doesn't take short cuts, I'm going with the company who doesn't take short cuts. Regardless of if the company who takes short cuts has 1 issue in a thousand.

I've seen enough to know firsthand of some companies that without question take shortcuts.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

And you seem to be glossing over the fact that they authenticate preprints. This should never ever happen. I mean never. It shouldn't be considered an honest mistake IMO but an outright fraud because they obviously didn't examine the item that someone paid them to examine. If you are getting paid to authenticate an item, you should be able to tell if it is a preprint by going through a thorough examination process. When these get passed, it is because they didn't do this, yet these are the people we trust to give our money to to authenticate something?

In most cases you don't even need a thorough examination process to see a preprint. Take the autograph photo out of the plastic sheet. The ink on the photo does not "leap" off the photo. You place it under a light and bingo, you can easily see what it is. Total time elapsed: under 60 seconds.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

In most cases you don't even need a thorough examination process to see a preprint. Take the autograph photo out of the plastic sheet. The ink on the photo does not "leap" off the photo. You place it under a light and bingo, you can easily see what it is. Total time elapsed: under 60 seconds.

and that's the part that bothers me Richard. I know no authenticator is perfect. Not a single one. Anybody can be fooled at a given time. It's the shoddy work and not properly examining an item and then giving your stamp of approval on something that I have an issue with. Especially when it is from someone who is supposedly one of the best and is making lots of money to do the job properly.