Warning: Disturbing Autograph "Authentication" Material!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by J.McMurry

My question in regards to the article and comments on this thread center on Spence himself. Taking out the TPG aspect of the situation,what is the opinion of James Spence the person? is he considered to be a crook? incompetent? untrustworthy? unknowledgeable? I noticed Richard did not list him among the names that were reliable,but about 10 years back,Spence fell into the category of "dealer who authenticates his own material". Just curious to hear opinions.

I had heard that, and didn't know for sure either way, then I saw this.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=17131

This sure looks like a Spence created display, certed by Spence, so going by this description, it looked like he certed what was or what once was his own item., He should have recused himself.



An absolutely phenomenal signed display that features the autographs of 10 of the 11 living members (at the time) of the 1939 Hall of Fame dedication ceremonies during baseball's centennial year (Ty Cobb arrived too late to be in the famous photo). The piece was crafted by the inimitable James Spence, whose signed displays are the "cream of the crop". Includes: Babe Ruth (personal check); Walter Johnson (check); J. Honus Wagner (cut); George Sisler (cut); Eddie Collins (cut); Connie Mack (cut); Tris Speaker (cut); Cy Young (cut); Grover Cleveland Alexander (index card); Larry Lajoie (index card). Every one of the vintage ink signatures rate a solid "9-10" in strength, and each of the "cuts" are large examples. Accompanying the signed items are... an 11" x 14" black & white photo of the 11 Hall of Famers; seven original black & white Hall of Fame postcards (Wagner, Ruth, Collins, Young, Johnson, Alexander & Lajoie); copies of the other three postcards (Sisler, Mack & Speaker); a reproduction of the colorful 1939 Baseball Centennial program. Majestically framed & matted to 33 x 41 inches. LOA from James Spence/PSA DNA.

[travrosty]

I think it should be mentioned that auction loa's and quick opinions are more of a recent concept.

I don't see these auction listings for 10, 12 years ago mentioning auction loa's, because I don't believe the concept didn't exist back then, the concept of giving an item a lesser, quick, preliminary, cursory review and then trying to get the buyer to send in the item for the full loa after they give in a full inspection to certifying that it is "really" real.

if it had an loa from spence/guttierez or whoever, then it had an loa from them.

[RichardSimon]

Ya gotta just laugh and cry about the balls, the gonads not the baseballs , of the auction COA con.
The alphabets charge an auction house thousands of dollars when they visit them, they issue an auction COA, then they stick the collector with another $100+ or whatever jab, to actually examine the item.

[yanks12025]

Did anyone notice in the next April Heritage's auction, they have 6 Ruth signed balls in mint shape.

[Caseyatbat]

I had mentioned the item in question here may have been issued an auction LOA rather than a full LOA because there is evidence in the story that suggests that. The original auction description mentions it has LOA's from so and so. It does not mention whether it is a Full LOA or an Auction LOA, so it could be either.

In the story, it mentions the LOA itself reads that all the autographs are 9's and 10's in the description. This does not happen in a Full Letter. Spence does not "grade" autographs and this service was not available until years after this by any TPA. This would only happen in a Auction LOA, because in an auction letter the entire Lot description is used as the description in the Auction letter. And that sounds like what is going on here to me.

And this should clear up a little about "Auction Letters". They are not issued by the actual TPA. The Auction Letter is actually issued by the Auction House itself. The Auction House uses their own lot description in it, and it is not signed by the TPA either. It contains a facsimile pre-printed version. An auction letter is a way for "The Auction House" to guarantee the item. They guarantee the item to pass a Full LOA from that particular TPA within a certain amount of time (45 or 90 days I believe), or you have the option to return the item to the auction house if not. So the tough part to understand here is, it is not the TPA guaranteeing it is going to pass the full authentication process. It is the Auction House saying it is guaranteed to pass the full authentication or you can return if it does not. So it is very important to get a Full LOA ASAP within the allotted time or you will not have the guarantee anymore from the auction house. Because all an auction letter really is, is a letter from the auction house itself. And of course, we all know how risky that can be when you think about it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

I had mentioned the item in question here may have been issued an auction LOA rather than a full LOA because there is evidence in the story that suggests that. The original auction description mentions it has LOA's from so and so. It does not mention whether it is a Full LOA or an Auction LOA, so it could be either.

In the story, it mentions the LOA itself reads that all the autographs are 9's and 10's in the description. This does not happen in a Full Letter. Spence does not "grade" autographs and this service was not available until years after this by any TPA. This would only happen in a Auction LOA, because in an auction letter the entire Lot description is used as the description in the Auction letter. And that sounds like what is going on here to me.

And this should clear up a little about "Auction Letters". They are not issued by the actual TPA. The Auction Letter is actually issued by the Auction House itself. The Auction House uses their own lot description in it, and it is not signed by the TPA either. It contains a facsimile pre-printed version. An auction letter is a way for "The Auction House" to guarantee the item. They guarantee the item to pass a Full LOA from that particular TPA within a certain amount of time (45 or 90 days I believe), or you have the option to return the item to the auction house if not. So the tough part to understand here is, it is not the TPA guaranteeing it is going to pass the full authentication process. It is the Auction House saying it is guaranteed to pass the full authentication or you can return if it does not. So it is very important to get a Full LOA ASAP within the allotted time or you will not have the guarantee anymore from the auction house. Because all an auction letter really is, is a letter from the auction house itself. And of course, we all know how risky that can be when you think about it.

no it couldn't because there were no auction loa's yet, that concept wasn't invented yet. they were all full loa's back then. show me any auction listing from 1999 to 2001 that says auction loa anywhere. There just wasnt auction loa's back then, there was no 'upgrade service' , give us more money then we will say it is 'really' real.

[Caseyatbat]

you are right, I am not sure if they had Aution LOA's that far back either. But show me a full LOA where it states all the autographs are 9's and 10's as well.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Did anyone notice in the next April Heritage's auction, they have 6 Ruth signed balls in mint shape.

Brock:
I cannot find that auction on-line. Can you send or post a link, if you have access?

Thanks!

[johnmh71]

Let's all believe everything Nash says. He would never do anything phony or fraudulent himself. I wonder how the fresh slice of humble pie tastes?:

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...series-trophy/

[travrosty]

What was written about the Honus Wagner signature on the induction covers (disappearing and then reappearing) is not a matter of opinion, you don't have to "believe" anyone. It is a matter of record.

The auctions that are referred to are available to anyone and everyone, they are public information. Look at the 2001 auction listing online and the other auction in the catalog that is mentioned, and you will see the same pictures that haulsofshame showed.

Do you believe your own eyes?

And I would like to ask Leon to ask these posters to please post their own full name as I was recently asked to do so, and I graciously obliged.

[Vintagedegu]

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[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Ya gotta just laugh and cry about the balls, the gonads not the baseballs , of the auction COA con.
The alphabets charge an auction house thousands of dollars when they visit them, they issue an auction COA, then they stick the collector with another $100+ or whatever jab, to actually examine the item.

yea, and collectors put their faith in companies with these types of practices. If it isn't obvious they only care about the almighty dollar, then I don't know what will ever convince people.

[yanks12025]

Mark,

Here you go. Go to page 7

http://sports.ha.com/common/search_r...6&chkNotSold=0