Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Anyhow....John....you will NOT see any more cards (or sets) from my collection. I'm through dealing with you.TED Z

That’s very convenient and should work out well for you Ted especially given your history of tall tales of cards you don’t own.

You’re right Ted we all were collecting pals even more distributing for your constant need to make up stuff. No obsession other than I get tired of seeing you post bad info and tell tall tales of items that you don’t own. I don’t think it’s fair or right. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I’m only reposting claims you have made that have fallen flat or been proven to be outright fabrications. This misery or issues you see with me doing this is and always will be a bed of your own making.

Feel free to twist in an attempt to take what I have posted in a different direction anyone who can read can see you have once again made a claim to own something you don’t. That’s all and that’s the bigger question folks should be asking. Why does Ted do this to himself why make up stores of 151 cards when you have 150 why?

John
a.k.a. "The Wonka Dude"

[Abravefan11]

Ted - Your questions alone show that you and I are essentially speaking two different languages concerning how the T206 set was produced. If we can not agree on the basic foundations of the set, then discussing almost any other aspect of the set is an exercise in futility. With that said I will do my best to answer your questions.

Lets start with these questions.

1st....the Jennings (portrait) card contradicts your "thought", as it was printed ONLY with a PIEDMONT 150 back (NO SOVEREIGN 150 back....NO SWEET CAPORAL
150 back....NO HINDU back). This lone PIEDMONT 150 card of Jennings does not jive with your "SOVEREIGN 150 hypothesis".

2nd....the Crawford (throwing) card was printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back and the SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs....but, NO HINDU or SOVEREIGN 150 backs. The
logical timeline here regarding the Crawford & Jennings cards suggests to us that American Litho. printed the HINDU and SOVEREIGN (150 series) cards subsequent
to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAP cards.

The way your presenting my opinion with your concepts of the set is not accurate. Your presenting the timeline of the printing of each back brand as if it only happened once during the series. So if a card is possible with a Piedmont 150 back than it must have been printed in the first offering of the set. We don't believe that this was true for all backs. We do believe that Sovereign was only produced during the early part of the 150 Series and was not printed again later. We do believe that Hindu was only printed at the end of the 150 Series and not in the early offerings. But we do believe that Piedmont and Sweet Caporal were printed more than one time throughout the 150 Series.

So a subject like Crawford could have been absent from the initial offering of Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal, but still have been printed later in the 150 Series with Sweet Caporal and Piedmont backs.

The same situations apply to the Jennings card. In both cases you are asking for an explanation for why they're absent in the Hindu set. That's a great question? Why did ATC/ALC not print a large portion of the available subjects with Hindu backs? They definitely intended to print them with Hindu, just as they intended to print all 48 southern league subjects, but they didn't. The advertisements clearly state 150 Subjects, yet they only printed 102. These two subjects aren't unique in being excluded from that offering, a 1/3 of the major-league subjects didn't get printed with this back. So the fact that they aren't found with a Hindu back has no bearing on this issue. (IMO)

Furthermore, your claim that Wagner & Plank were printed subsequent to the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, absolutely makes NO logical sense....for, if this was so, Wagner
and Plank would exist with SOVEREIGN 150 backs. What is your timeline for the SOVEREIGN 150 printing ?

As I stated before we believe that the initial offering of cards in the early summer of 1909 were only the original 150 subjects. Wagner and Plank were not part of this printing. If they had been they would have been printed with a Sovereign 150 back. We believe when they were first added to the set they were included with a Sweet Caporal offering for factories 25 and 30. After that when they began to print them with a Piedmont back they were removed prior to being distributed.

Earlier in this thread I discussed how Sweet Caporal and Piedmont are extremely complicated to decipher because unlike Sovereign and Hindu they weren't offered for a limited time. During the 350 Series Piedmont adds ran once a week from February to August advertising that baseball cards were included in each pack. I don't believe this lengthy distribution was accomplished with a single production of Piedmont backed cards, but rather repeated printings of this back throughout the series. We believe the same holds true for the 150 series.

You appear to be stuck on (or perhaps, carried away) with the fact that the exact number of 150-subjects in the SOVEREIGN 150 press run is something "magic".
And, if I understand you....Are you really saying that the printing of the SOVEREIGN 150 cards preceded the printing of the PIEDMONT 150 & SWEET CAPORAL
150 (Factory 25 & 30) cards ?

I hope I've cleared up the printing of the various backs so you'll understand I'm not saying that the Sovereign set proceeded Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. I am saying that I believe that additional printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal followed the Sovereign printing.

And, several of us would like to know what T206 backs are on this COLLAGE that you referred to ?

If anything that I've said has made sense up to this point, you'll know the answer to this question.

I hope this clears up any of the confusion about what I believe.

[wonkaticket]

Ted let me know if you need the Cliff Clavin notes on the above.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted let me know if you need the Cliff Clavin notes on the above.

John, my local pub is nothing but Cliff Clavins.

Yes, it's a Cliff Bar.

[E93]

Tim,
Your presentation makes a lot of sense to me and I appreciate all the hard work you and others have put into this. I have a question about the Plank. It makes sense that Wagner and Plank were late additions to the 150 series and only distributed with Sweet Cap backs. Both have what appear to be a few handcut examples with Piedmont 150 backs. In the case of the Wagner, it makes sense that these were pulled from distribution right away and never made it into Piedmont packs. But we know that Plank continued into the 350 series, at least for a very short time. How would you explain the existence of a pulled 150 Piedmont Plank that then gets continued in the 350 series?

My guess is that since there seems to be some evidence to suggest the Wagner and Plank 150's were on the same sheet that when Wagner protested, since not many of those Piedmont sheets had been printed, they just trashed them rather than try to individually pull Wagners out. So a few Plank 150s and a couple Wagner 150s made their way to the hobby. Wagner production was then done, but Plank continued for a short period after the switch to 350. Does that seem probable? I would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
JimB

[E93]

And one more question:

Do you think that the number of Wagner SC 150s and the number of Plank SC 150s is roughly the same with the Plank 350s accounting for the slightly larger number of extant Planks than Wagners?
JimB

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by E93

Tim,
Your presentation makes a lot of sense to me and I appreciate all the hard work you and others have put into this. I have a question about the Plank. It makes sense that Wagner and Plank were late additions to the 150 series and only distributed with Sweet Cap backs. Both have what appear to be a few handcut examples with Piedmont 150 backs. In the case of the Wagner, it makes sense that these were pulled from distribution right away and never made it into Piedmont packs. But we know that Plank continued into the 350 series, at least for a very short time. How would you explain the existence of a pulled 150 Piedmont Plank that then gets continued in the 350 series?

My guess is that since there seems to be some evidence to suggest the Wagner and Plank 150's were on the same sheet that when Wagner protested, since not many of those Piedmont sheets had been printed, they just trashed them rather than try to individually pull Wagners out. So a few Plank 150s and a couple Wagner 150s made their way to the hobby. Wagner production was then done, but Plank continued for a short period after the switch to 350. Does that seem probable? I would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
JimB

Hi Jim - I think you and I are in agreement. I believe the reason that the Piedmont 150 sheets were pulled was to remove the Wagner. In doing so Plank was removed from the Piedmont 150 distribution as well but his subject wasn't discontinued at that point.

From the point that the Piedmont sheets were removed until the next printing of Plank was an interesting time in the print group 1 production. Here's how we explain the progression of the Plank on the site.

After the Piedmont 150 printing in which the Plank cards were not distributed, several more printings took place that did not include the Plank card. The first was for distribution with Hindu brand cigarettes. In total, 102 major-league subjects were printed at this time, with a third of the available subjects, including Plank, not being printed. The next printing was for the transition of the set from the 150 to the 350 series, with subjects being printed with Piedmont 350 and El Principe De Gales backs. Of the available subjects that could be printed at this time, just more than half were included and just less than half were not printed. Again, Plank was in this large no-print group. Of these two print runs, many subjects from print group 1 were absent from one or the other, with a group of subjects that included Plank being absent from both.

The next printing was for Sweet Caporal 350 No.30 and included Plank. After the distribution of Plank cards with this back, no additional cards of his were printed. It is not known if a cease and desist of some kind was presented to the companies responsible for the set or if they simply chose to remove the card on their own.

Originally Posted by E93

And one more question:

Do you think that the number of Wagner SC 150s and the number of Plank SC 150s is roughly the same with the Plank 350s accounting for the slightly larger number of extant Planks than Wagners?
JimB

I've been looking at the Plank and Wagner numbers for a while now and from what I can tell the Wagner and Plank SC 150 numbers are relatively the same. I don't want to go into too much detail on this as I haven't had a chance to speak to John and a few others yet to discuss it in more detail.

Yes, I believe the additional printing of the Plank with a 350 back accounts for there being more Planks than Wagner's.