Who is the biggest culprit?

[sycks22]

I remember back in 1990 when the Thomas Leaf (my favorite player) was at a local card shop and they were asking full book $80 for it. My bro and I both wanted a new bike for our b-days and I assured my dad I would get a Giant impactor ( $100 bike + Thomas) while my bro would get the higher valued bike (diamondback tailwhip, $250). Those were the days when the only chance you had at finding a Brett rookie was one with 12 creases and a corner missing for $20 and you still debated getting it. Once the packs hit $4+ everyone started getting out it appears. Every now and then I'll buy a couple packs at target, but after getting 3-4 cards for $5 it's depressing. I kinda of blame the downfall of the hobby on card companies that need that 1 of 1 item to compete with the other 25 companies. I remember back in 1990 when Donruss Elite came out and they were numbered out of 10,000 and you were the man if you owned one. Now every other card is numbered out of 100 and nobody cares.

[dougscats]

Some very interesting answers and good points,
but I'm sort of stunned that everyone seems to accept the premiss:

Baseball card collecting is on the decline?

Funny, my guess would be that there is more money, far more money, being spent on baseball cards every year now than ever before, and that there are probably more collectors as well.
Not that there's not plenty wrong with the hobby.
Nor that kids and modern baseball card collecting are much different than they used to be.
Nor that, ironically, a lot of the reasons given for a decline are also reasons for an increase in the business end of the hobby, as several post-ers pointed out [Ebay being the best example of technology].

I also see prices stabilizing and much greater expertise on behalf of the average collector [because of forums like Net54, for example].
These are positive developments.
And the competition for cards is greater than ever [why it's so tough to get a steal on ebay anymore, for instance].

Hope I'm not spoiling this thread [as I'm enjoying it], but I'm just not sure if I agree that the hobby is on the decline.
I do think kids' foci have changed, though, and this could lead to big trouble for the long-term future of the hobby [especially once there are fewer dads who enjoyed collecting to do it with them].
Personally, I have little interest in modern cards [partially because they seem so overproduced], but even that overproduction points out that there's an awful lot of money still being spent on them at this point.

Enough,

Doug

[JasonD08]

I've said it before and I will say it again..........I have the solution, topps should buy out Upper Deck, Fleer, Donruss, Score, Prism, whoever, and go to one set WITH wax wrappers and bubble gum inside like the old days, print the sets in series with NO traded sets, and make the 7th series your rookie class and SPs with 40 man guys. 1 SET. No Heritage, jersey cards, etc........if they want to insert a subset of autos, or auto jerseys of modern players (actives) only I am 100% for that. Take away the competition and make it fun and affordable and ATTAINABLE for all kids and adults alike. Cut unneeded employees, downsize and be more profitable.

Jason

[JasonD08]

Doug

The only reason more money may be spent now is because it is an adult hobby and generally older adults with extra money plus the fact the cost of everything is exponentially higher. I would guess the number of collectors are not growing.

Jason

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

I've said it before and I will say it again..........I have the solution, topps should buy out Upper Deck, Fleer, Donruss, Score, Prism, whoever, and go to one set WITH wax wrappers and bubble gum inside like the old days, print the sets in series with NO traded sets, and make the 7th series your rookie class and SPs with 40 man guys. 1 SET. No Heritage, jersey cards, etc........if they want to insert a subset of autos, or auto jerseys of modern players (actives) only I am 100% for that. Take away the competition and make it fun and affordable and ATTAINABLE for all kids and adults alike. Cut unneeded employees, downsize and be more profitable.

Jason

And Topps would shortly go out of business afterwards. For better or worse, the vast majority of modern collectors want multiple products per year. On Freedom Cardboard (the much, much bigger shiny version of Net54), there are several threads asking for Topps to not be the only licensed company anymore. It is "boring" that there were "only" 20ish baseball sets produced last year. Set collecting is dead. Why do we constantly feel the need to make sets attainable for kids when it's obvious that low-end products don't appeal to them.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Why do we constantly feel the need to make sets attainable for kids when it's obvious that low-end products don't appeal to them.

I was gonna quote an earlier post of yours, but this one is just as good. Your earlier post stated that "Kids aren't dumb, they want the good cards and not the low end $1 packs". This is exactly the truth, kids aren't "dumb". There are still some kids into collecting, but like Orioles1954 says (James?) they aren't "dumb" they want the really good modern cards. Case in point, about a month ago, me and one of my local collecting buddies went to a local shop and we took along his 11 year old son, who seems pretty interested in collecting. His dad gave him $100 to spend at the card shop (I know, lucky kid). What did he want to buy? He wanted the $90 a pack Ultimate Collection Hockey, where you only get 4 or 5 cards in one pack. I even asked him, i said "Wouldn't you rather get 100 packs of the Upper Deck Victory, which sell for $1 a pack?". His reply was "Why? so i have a big pile of junk at the end?". The UD Ultimate packs were $90 each but they guaranteed 1 autograph, 1 jersey or patch card and one serial numbered rookie card per pack and thats what he told me he wanted. He even told me he'd have a lot more fun looking at the autograph and jersey card, then he would looking at the other 1200 "common cards" (as he said) combined.

As for the question, as i answered earlier its technology that has taken a lot of the younger kids out of card collecting, but as a whole i think the hobby is in pretty decent shape, it has just changed and evolved with the times. When we were kids we got involved in collecting at a very young age. Nowadays, i notice people are getting involved or re-involved in collecting at an older age, in their late teen years, 20's, 30's and older. A lot of people who are getting into collecting in their 20's/30's are getting interested from the flashy autograph/patch/refractor cards, but then after a few years of the modern stuff, many are then getting into the vintage and pre-war.

The hobby will never be as big as it was in the 80's and early 90s, but the hobby will survive and it is doing just fine (you only have to look on ebay and see how many people are buying and selling all the time. Or look on Freedom Card Board and this site at how many collectors are posting and lurking), it has just evolved into what it is today and it is what it is.

[vargha]

The market has evolved (as it always does). Sometimes I think people long for the "good old days" that maybe never were. The Internet, eBay and TPG (for all of their problems) brought a greater interest, lots more money, and with it, a boatload of cards that many of us had never seen. We may not like what the little pieces of cardboard cost now, but who really wants to go back to the days of waiting for your monthly card newspaper to arrive in the mail with the same few overgraded and overpriced cards? And then when you finally found the card you wanted in an ad and made the overpriced long distance call to say that you'd take it, found out that it had been sold the week before? To each their own, I suppose.

[freakhappy]

I'm definitely not saying anything new here, but it's simple evolution that is occurring in the hobby. Sports cards started out just as a collecting hobby and also as a 'bonus' and a catch for people to buy other products (tobacco products). Over time the industry has changed quite a bit and eventually money has had a great deal to do with it. As said before, technology has most kids attention and since everything seems to be about money...Card companies do what they have to do to make more money...and that means make sports cards more interesting and valuable. No wonder people 'invest' in cards...it only makes sense.

Overall, I think it's pretty simple...evolution in the industry is where our issue lies

[glchen]

I've been thinking about this for a while because there are always threads about the hobby in decline popping up regularly. I'm also starting to come around to the theory that the hobby is very healthy as it currently is and don't worry about the kids.

Everybody is worried since kids don't collect cards like they did when they were young. However, do we hear about card companies going out of business because they lose too much money printing cards? Nope (they only go out when they don't get licenses from MLB). So then the card companies must still be selling enough to do just fine even if they're selling to more adults these days then kids. Face it, as others have mentioned, kids have a lot of other entertainment options these days. That's just how it is.

Secondly, I read things such as Link postings from Heritage telling about record revenue in Sports Memorabilia and other collectibles like coins. Let's talk coins. According to that article Heritage had nearly 200 million in revenue last year in colin auctions (compared to 16+ million in Sports Collectibles). Those are huge numbers. Now how many kids these days do you know that collect coins? Heck, probably fewer than collect baseball cards! (Granted it is a lot cheaper to start a coin collection, like if you wanted to start w/ the 50 states quarter collection.) I'm not a coin collector, but I don't think those collectors are too worried about their hobby dying out.

Lastly, why do people really care about the hobby on the decline? Sure, it's boring if there are fewer and fewer people in the hobby to chat with and the fact that you are constantly losing an enormous wealth of knowledge in the hobby. However, if you are concerned about pricing dropping, that just means that there are more cards that you can afford to buy and put into your own collection. If you are worried about your own value of your collection going down because of resale value in the future, then go back to the article from Heritage and others which show that sales in the hobby are going up. No doubt that there are particular areas that are going down in value, but that's more reflective of collecting tastes changing which may be cyclical. You still have to be smart about buying cards (like not overpaying) for financial reasons, but the decline of the hobby will not be the reason why your collection has gone down in value.

[Danny Smith]

I totally agree with this. I love the hobby. I was out of it for a while and I am having a blast now with the availability of information and cards via the internet and at shows. My little kids love it too. They love opening packs and seeing their favorite teams and players. They also enjoy my vintage cards because they enjoy learning from me.

There are certainly issues with the hobby, as you have all pointed out but my own opinion is that the hobby as a whole is OK and definitely better than the past few years where there was a bit of an adjustment.

Very interesting thread indeed and I look forward to more discussion!

Originally Posted by dougscats

Some very interesting answers and good points,
but I'm sort of stunned that everyone seems to accept the premiss:

Baseball card collecting is on the decline?

Funny, my guess would be that there is more money, far more money, being spent on baseball cards every year now than ever before, and that there are probably more collectors as well.
Not that there's not plenty wrong with the hobby.
Nor that kids and modern baseball card collecting are much different than they used to be.
Nor that, ironically, a lot of the reasons given for a decline are also reasons for an increase in the business end of the hobby, as several post-ers pointed out [Ebay being the best example of technology].

I also see prices stabilizing and much greater expertise on behalf of the average collector [because of forums like Net54, for example].
These are positive developments.
And the competition for cards is greater than ever [why it's so tough to get a steal on ebay anymore, for instance].

Hope I'm not spoiling this thread [as I'm enjoying it], but I'm just not sure if I agree that the hobby is on the decline.
I do think kids' foci have changed, though, and this could lead to big trouble for the long-term future of the hobby [especially once there are fewer dads who enjoyed collecting to do it with them].
Personally, I have little interest in modern cards [partially because they seem so overproduced], but even that overproduction points out that there's an awful lot of money still being spent on them at this point.

Enough,

Doug

[novakjr]

6) Joey Farino

Sorry!!! Anyways, I'd say it's obviously a combination of everything listed, BUT I think one of the biggest contributing factors lies with the ballplayers. It comes from today's game having a great number of players that we either can't relate to, that are unapproachable and often times very unappreciative of the opportunity that they've been given by the game..

Also, the current dirt-digging state of the media would get some of the blame in my book as well. You rarely ever hear good stories about athletes nowadays. Mostly what you get is stories about drugs, spousal abuse, infidelity, latin ballplayers lying about their names and ages, and other assorted acts of general assholishness. But then again is it really the media's fault, or are modern athletes exactly what they've been exposed as?

[HistoricNewspapers]

We have cable TV, many video games, and the internet...with various ways to access all of them. That is baseball's competition, and card collecting's competition.

My kid spends his free time posting videos on YouTube, playing Xbox live with his friends(if you don't know what this is, it is a way to play video games with your friends while each is in their own house); and watching movies like Hall Pass on cable! He also plays travel baseball, but doesn't even watch baseball.

Back in the day, cards only had to compete with Andy Griffith, reading books, or playing board games.

If I were a 13 year old kid and was in my family room and choosing between reading a book, watching Andy Griffith, or collecting cards of my favorite sport...cards has a great shot of winning that battle.

If collecting and looking at cards is put up against seeing a great pair boobs on TV, or put up against getting to shoot people with scoped rifles on your TV while bantering with your friends on a headset....cards lose all the time.

[Goose]

Speaking as someone that bought cards as a kid in the mid/late 70's that now has 3 kids....

All 3 of our kids (boy 14, girl 11, girl 9) all enjoy buying packs of cards but the card co's have morphed the hobby into a lottery for adults....meaning you're simply buying a 3.00 pack at the chance of a "hit".

Back in the 70's my mom or dad would hand me a couple of bucks and I could buy 8 or more packs! Now today there's no way I'm handing my kid 25.00 to buy several packs of cards. If they're lucky I'll buy them ONE....and I won't even do that anymore due to the morons I see at the local Target fondling the individual packs trying to find the hits.

My son bought 2 A&G blasters the other night for 30.00 total. He ended up with a couple of decent hits and some Yankees but honestly I wouldn't give someone 5.00 for what he had pulled. Like I said it's like a lottery ticket.....

They've priced the kids out and seemingly don't care. Must be enough adults hooked to keep the "hobby" alive.