Do-over. heritage relists no sale psa, jsa 1939 controversial signedinduction program

[thekingofclout]

Now, I'm certainly not taking sides here, as I've stated before, I have no expertise in signatures whatsoever.

But... how many times do you suppose Babe, Cobb, and the rest of the inductees scribbled their name on every item shoved in their faces for the few days that was the Grand Opening Festivals at Cooperstown?

The Post Office alone sold thousands upon thousands of First Day post cards, stamps, etc. This image is what they constantly endured during their whole visit in the completely packed little town.

BTW... This terrific little book is a great read, and tells the story of that historic event...

A Great Day in Cooperstown: The Improbable Birth of Baseball's Hall of Fame by Jim Reisler

cooperstownparade.jpg

[RichardSimon]

That is one cool photo.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

That is one cool photo.

I agree, very cool photo.

[travrosty]

Third autograph in this series is the already infamous Larrry Lajoie, with three R's.

As you can see the 3 R Lajoie is a rare animal. I don't think these are real, and I believe if the person who penned them could do it over again, he would probably retreive one of those R's.

You can see from one to the other, the capital L's vary as their loops look different and are inconsistent with their proportions, and the a in Lajoie has a more flourished, artsy look with the little loops in the ink example, and very simple, and straightforward in the pencil example. In my opinion, I don't think these are good. Any thoughts?

[RichardSimon]

When I was asked about them my second thought after chuckling over 3 R's was that the top loop on the L was way too long.
But I also know who else would have authenticated this piece and seen it wind up in a CC auction.
Agree Travis?

[travrosty]

Here is the Connie Mack signatures from both programs that were certed by psa and jsa. Notice how the ink signature on the 1939 program that featured the 3 R Larry Lajoie takes on a slant to the right, while the pencil signature on the 1939 induction day HOF program that is currently on its 2nd go round at Heritage as we speak stands upright, straight as an arrow, no slant.

The NN's in Connie slant to the right in the ink signature, while they don't seem to slant at all in the pencil signature. The E in Connie slants forward on the ink signature, and lays back on the pencil signature. Wow! That's quite a contrast and quite embarrassing.

Both signatures supposed to be signed on the same day back in 1939, and psa and jsa like them both. I don't like them, they don't match and they are just a couple more signatures that are contrived and dubious on this hit parade of autographs that come up snake eyes. How can they both be real as PSA and JSA claim? What exemplars were used.

Were any exemplars used?

Were any good exemplars used? How were the principles of handwriting analysis used on these pieces?

The pencil signature is especially childish and ridiculous. How did either of thsee get a coveted cert?

Give me your thoughts, and if you like JSA and PSA and still think they do a great job, especially on vintage baseball and sports, please come on here let your voice be heard.

[yanks12025]

Couldn't the way someone signs, alter the auto in a way. Say that they are sitting down and signing on a table compared to standing signing?

[Caseyatbat]

Here is an example of another 1939 HOF Induction signed item that was actually sold in the exact same auction as the first example being used in this thread with the ink signatures. It is an amazing item and I don't think there is much question regarding the authenticity of it. Should be a great example for you guys to compare to.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Give me your thoughts, and if you like JSA and PSA and still think they do a great job, especially on vintage baseball and sports, please come on here let your voice be heard.

You know I love your passion Travis and I hold your opinions in high regard, despite what you might think. My feelings are that the leaders in 3rd party authentication need some work. Maybe a lot. These kind of examples coming to light are the product of very sloppy work (which we know they are susceptible), favoritism, fraud or both. I guess I choose to believe that they mostly get it right. The FDE's that have to know by now they are authenticating NOTHING BUT FORGERIES, because they almost NEVER GET IT RIGHT. They are complicit to the crime. It goes way beyond "I didn't know, it's my opinion" B.S they like to hang their hat on. They never retract a certificate either. Both FDE's and alphabets should retract known forgeries that got by their initial look as soon as it is a well known fact. With FDE's like Moraless, he would have 3 obscure golf autographs correct and almost everything else should be recalled.

I know you went to work for one of the alphabets for a very short time. You left after you found out you couldn't make a difference and your ideas fell on deaf ears. They are idiots for not listening. They are really not trying to improve their business. After you beat your head against the wall and found out "change for the better" was not in the works with the current structure, you left. I wish they would have taken the constructive criticism, but they didn't and apparently don't listen to anyone. Their overall reputation will suffer with many strong detractors like yourself if they keep it up.

Still, it would be comforting for you to admit that Christopher Moraless does not have his certification on 1-Authentic Muhammad Ali autograph. They are all forgeries. (99.99%) I speak from what I know like you do. I see very few questionable Mickey Mantle's with PSA or JSA. They are almost always right. Just like Moraless is always wrong. So, I don't know how much more I can tell you.

I think your efforts to discredit PSA & JSA and not FDE's is a TRAVESTY, pun intended. I am against all nonsense and fraud not just from alphabets and that's what makes it hard to get behind your plight. You are 100MPH railing against alphabets with blinders on. If they keep it up, they will be out of business and all we'll have is rubber stamper FDE's popping up more so than they do now.

In any case, Keep doing what makes you happy and everything should work out just fine in the end.

[RichardSimon]

Here ya go guys, 5 more authenticated 1939 HOF induction pieces on the net.
I blew up the size of some of them so you could get a better look at the signatures, that accounts for the slight fuzzy look on a couple of them.
Any comments?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Here ya go guys, 5 more authenticated 1939 HOF induction pieces on the net.
I blew up the size of some of them so you could get a better look at the signatures, that accounts for the slight fuzzy look on a couple of them.
Any comments?

Holy crap!!! Those are authenticated!!! What a horrific set of forgeries!!!

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, these 5 items you posted may have been authenticated, but I would bet my life none of them were authenticated by the 2 major TPA's. These 5 items are all straight out of CC and most likely sold for pennies. Infact, I think these items should be used as an example why TPA's are important. They would never pass a respected TPA.