Where have all the T206 uncut sheets gone.... ?

[mkdltn]

There is a color called Buff as well-its the flesh tone.

[Ronnie73]

I agree with Steve that the sheets were not hung. Old presses used air suction to pickup and move the sheets and also to dry them. The inks that were used, would dry quickly. The ink is so thick that a putty knife would have to be used to spread it evenly in the tray that contacts the ink rollers. During use, thinners would have to be added to the ink tray because the ink would dry into one big stickey chunk. If anyone has ever used bondo for autobody, the ink is thicker than that.

[glchen]

Slightly off topic, but most people have said that the Gretzky Wagner is trimmed. I suppose this would mean that it was trimmed from a "jumbo" Wagner rather than sheet cut since uncut sheets don't exist?

And speaking of the "jumbo" cards, would this mean that these were on the top or bottom row of the sheet or just miscut?

[wonkaticket]

"Here is a scan of the 12 subjects that were the start of the T206 press runs in the Spring/Summer of 1909. These cards were initially printed with the PIEDMONT and SWEET
CAPORAL brands. The Wagner card was discontinued due to his claim "of not endorsing cigarette smoking". Connie Mack's biography tells us that Connie Mack and Eddie Plank
were strongly "anti-tobacco" and did not want their picture associated with tobacco cards."

Really Ted? If Wagner was in the first run where is the 150 Sovereign or Hindu Wagner Ted?

A lot of the first series cards are found with other backs as well Hindu, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap Wagner cant be found with anything other than handcut Piedmont same goes for Plank.

So I fail to see how Wagner & Plank were in the first runs of T206 if so I'd be looking for a Hindu and Sovereign Plank & Wagner. Unless you are saying that Hindu and Sovereign were printed way later?

BTW love to see your new Magie card when you can.

John

[tedzan]

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

Ted,

I’m still not following your logic and to me it makes no sense at all????

There are (2) Piedmont Wagners that I know of both I think most would agree are trimmed or hand cut although one does reside in it’s wonderful PSA 8 holder. This card (PSA 8) is also the cornerstone of the grading industry yet the sheet mate Plank gets the AUTH years later too funny but I’m getting off point here LOL.

My point is taking Sovereign out of the mix, even taking Hindu out of the mix and focusing solely on Piedmont the ATC’s anchor brand as you say. Then answer this…..

Why can I get all the original 150 subjects with Piedmont 150 (not to mention Sovereign & Hindu) non hand cut such as the (2) lonely sole Wagners? Same goes for Plank 150’s of which there are (3) lonely hand cut cards one missing color too boot.

Seems to me if Wagner & Plank were on the initial launch run as you claim under the mega brand Piedmont surely we as a hobby would have seen gradable examples by now of Wagner with Piedmont 150 as well as Plank with Piedmont 150.

Also the fact that the Wagner PSA 8 was supposedly cut from a strip of cards with Plank is no real evidence either. We have no real idea other than stories on this, but from what I have heard it seems it was more of strip vs. a full sheet. I’m not sure how we can draw conclusions on sheet configurations from these hear say stories of the fateful night of trimming in a backroom.



How do you come to the conclusion and state for the record that Plank & Wagner were in this run? Even the sporting life advertisements don’t have Wagner pop up in the ads until late Aug 1909 let alone no Plank pictured. There were ads from July 1909 with no Wagner pictured.

Taking into account you have no large amount of Wagners with Piedmont 150 nor Plank cards that aren’t hand cut. Then the ads delay in showing Wagner for almost a month. Then the fact that we have 350’s of Plank but no Wagner and I think it shows more that Wagner was less likely tied to Plank out of the gate nor was Wagner in the first run per say.

If Wagner & Plank were in the 150 first printing pass as you you claim then the smoking gun would be out of the 40-100+ Wagners everybody talks about why only two hand cut Piedmont Wagners? Same for Plank also.

Where’s the smoking gun where’s the non-hand cut Piedmont 150’s of Wagner & Plank? It’s the ATC’s mega flagship brand as you point out, Plank and Wagner are big time players how did they not get printed with Piedmont beyond our few hand cut examples?

BTW still waiting on a bed of nails for your Magie image. I know you were after one forever and you called out your new one in the monster number thread love to see this baby, nice example Ted?

Cheers,

John

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey John

The PIEDMONT brand was ATC's "flagship" tobacco product. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL brand. Therefore, these original 12 subjects
were first printed with these two advertising brands. Actually three backs, since at that point in time SWEET CAPORAL production was split
between two Factory's (#25 and #30).

The Wagner "controversy" occurred Spring/Summer of 1909 when the first SWEET CAPORAL cards were in circulation and American Litho.
removed his card very quickly.

Now, the yanking of the Plank most likely occurred concurrently with the removal of the Wagner card for either of the following reasons......

1....It is a documented fact that Eddie Plank was anti-tobacco. Most likely he followed Wagner's actions and informed ATC to remove his
card from circulation. Eddie was a low-keyed guy and did not receive the fanfare that Wagner got. A simple "cease & desist" order accom-
plished this back in those days.

2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. I base this scenario on the statement that
was made when the "Gretzy Wagner" was being shopped around in the mid-1980's at the Willow Grove show......that it originally was cut from
a panel of which the Plank card was adjacent to it. This info went "underground" for many years. But, it recently was revealed when Charlie
Conlon's PIEDMONT Plank surfaced in the REA auction.

In any event, the brown HINDU and SOVEREIGN press runs were subsequent to the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL press runs. And, by then
the situation regarding Wagner (and perhaps Plank) was over and done with....they were discontinued.

The HINDU tobacco products were produced at Factory #649 in Rochester, NY. ATC refurbished and modernized the old Kimball plant and this
plant was in operation in the Summer of 1909.


T-Rex TED

JimB

Thanks for agreeing with me on what I have already presented here earlier in this Thread in Post #13......in my 2nd point regarding the Eddie Plank card........

" 2....Or, the Plank cards were simply discarded along with the Wagner's when they were discarded. "


TED Z