Baseball Hall of Fame Vote

[ctownboy]

abothebear,

You bring up a good point about the different years there were work stopages in baseball. Some players lost the equivalent of a season (or maybe two) because of the different strikes from the 1970's to the 1990's.

As far as 1981 is concerned, Dave Concepcion had a career year as far as offense goes (116 OPS+). He was an All Star, won the Silver Slugger Award and finsihed fourth in the MVP balloting.

Oh yeah, the Reds also had the BEST record in baseball that year but DIDN'T make the Play Offs because of the strike. The owners decided that the best thing to do would be to have the winners of each half of the season to go to the Play Offs.

If the Reds had made the Play Offs that year, it is possible that they could have won the World Series. If they had, then Concepcion would have ANOTHER ring on his career resume and, according to the Phil Rizzuto supporters, that would have helped him as far as his HOF argument goes.

David

[packs]

Even if you don't think Rizzuto was a HOF player there is no doubt at all that he was a HOF Broadcaster. Whether you call him a player or a broadcaster is semantics but the bottom line is he IS a HOFer.

Dave Concepcion is not. He wasn't the fielder Vizquel or Smith are/were and has no record in the booth or a lasting contribution to baseball. Not to metion Rizzuto lost 4 YEARS in the absolute prime of his career to the war.

[Fred]

For those of you that like Larry Walker you guys gotta love Todd Helton:

Split

                  Home     Away

Games         1039       1015

AB              3688       3637

Runs            826         503

2B               296         258

3B                26             9

HR               212         135

RBI              788         520    

B.A.             .354        .291

SlgAve         .620        .478 

OPS            1.071       .869

I suppose, even with the Denver bias he's still a pretty good hitting machine.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Fred

For those of you that like Larry Walker you guys gotta love Todd Helton:

I suppose, even with the Denver bias he's still a pretty good hitting machine.

I was joking before when I blew off the Colorado factor. But yes, Walker, Gallaraga, Burks, Castilla, Helton, Holliday, Tulo. I can't help it. I've always been a fan of those Colorado sluggers. Helton power splits shouldn't be that different. Helton only played 5 seasons pre-humidor.. However, they did build that stadium with a deep outfield to account for the pre-humidor power surge. So nowadays, it's a great park for doubles and average.. Walker and Helton are still hall worthy in my book though, and Tulo's gotten off to a great start.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I was joking before when I blew off the Colorado factor. But yes, Walker, Gallaraga, Burks, Castilla, Helton, Holliday, Tulo. I can't help it. I've always been a fan of those Colorado sluggers. Helton power splits shouldn't be that different. Helton only played 5 seasons pre-humidor.. However, they did build that stadium with a deep outfield to account for the pre-humidor power surge. So nowadays, it's a great park for doubles and average.. Walker and Helton are still hall worthy in my book though, and Tulo's gotten off to a great start.

Gallaraga was one of my favorite players... i wish he had better stats.. To come back from what he went through and dominate is astounding.

I think Helton is well on his way to the HoF.

[abothebear]

"My point is that no one considers Finley or Reuschel to be HOFers and rightfully so. Why all the love for Morris?"

Because it isn't the Hall of Statistics.

[David W]

Back a few posts to the strike/lockout comment.

Harold Baines would be a hall of famer except for the 1981 and 1994/95 missed games, as he would certainly have made 3000 hits and 400 HR's.

McGriff gets to 500 homers without 94/95.

Neither is likely to get in......

[Irwin Fletcher]

Originally Posted by abothebear

"My point is that no one considers Finley or Reuschel to be HOFers and rightfully so. Why all the love for Morris?"

Because it isn't the Hall of Statistics.

That may be true, but I'm not aware of any other way to evaluate a player's performance and, just as importantly, compare a player's performance to that of his peers.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

Even if you don't think Rizzuto was a HOF player there is no doubt at all that he was a HOF Broadcaster. Whether you call him a player or a broadcaster is semantics but the bottom line is he IS a HOFer.

Broadcasters aren't HOF'ers. If you look at the list of guys in the HOF'ers, there are no broadcasters on that list (as broadcasters). Broadcasters have a separate wing and are given the Ford Frick Award but they aren't HOF'ers.

Tabe

[mr2686]

Broadcasters aren't HOF'ers. If you look at the list of guys in the HOF'ers, there are no broadcasters on that list (as broadcasters). Broadcasters have a separate wing and are given the Ford Frick Award but they aren't HOF'ers.

You are technically correct, however, for the most part they are still called HOFers, and just because they are part of the broadcaster wing or the print media wing, does not diminish their accomplishments or status in the HOF museum. As a side note, many collectors that collect HOF autographs do not collect the broadcasters or sports writers, but some do and they do make for some interesting additions for the HOF collection especially when some of those members were also on some championship teams, like Jerry Coleman, Joe Garagiola, Tony Kubek, etc.

[howard38]

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[packs]

We're still dealing with semantics which is what I acknowledged in my post. Rizzuto is a HOFer no matter how you slice it. He belongs in the HOF whether you personally decide it should be as a broadcaster or a player. Dave Concepcion does not belong in the HOF at all.

[Chris-Counts]

Personally, I would like to see more — and not less — players get inducted. But no matter how you slice it, if you go by stats alone, Rizzuto is a borderline candidate as a player. I put him slightly below Pee Wee Reese and slightly above Maury Wills and Dave Concepcion. People can talk all day long about intangibles, but that's how Rabbit Maranville and Bobby Wallace got in. A debate about intangibles will never be resolved. I'd take Alan Trammel or Cecil Travis over any of the previously mentioned shortstops. Travis — with his .314 lifetime average — gets short-changed because he didn't play long enough, but he also was never the same after the Battle of the Bulge. That should count for something ...

[spec]

Originally Posted by mr2686

You are technically correct, however, for the most part they are still called HOFers, and just because they are part of the broadcaster wing or the print media wing, does not diminish their accomplishments or status in the HOF museum. As a side note, many collectors that collect HOF autographs do not collect the broadcasters or sports writers, but some do and they do make for some interesting additions for the HOF collection especially when some of those members were also on some championship teams, like Jerry Coleman, Joe Garagiola, Tony Kubek, etc.

Clarifying further, there is no writers wing nor a broadcasters wing at the Baseball Hall of Fame. Though writers and broadcasters perpetuate the myth by referring to their honored colleagues as Hall of Fame writers or broadcasters, the annual winners of the Spink (writers) and Frick (broadcasters) awards for lifetime contributions to the game do not have plaques in the Hall; instead their names are engraved on a plaque at the Hall's library that is much more reminiscent of the Employee of the Month plaque at your local supermarket that the plaques in the Hall. These facts are not stated to diminish the accomplishments of these men, just to set the record straight.
Bob Richardson

[bbcard1]

I think, here's the scary part...without looking it up...I would put Harold Baines in far before Edgar Martinez. There was a time Baines was the most feared hitter in the game...I don't think Edgar ever achieved that.

[sycks22]

I know it more current, but ESPN just did a write up about determining the top players in every 5 year period starting in the '70's. It's crazy how many times Boggs is in there.

To the guy who wrote about wanting to see more players instead of less in the hall, doesn't that water down the HOF? Shouldn't only the top players make it instead of just average players? When I think of the hall I think Cobb / Wagner / Mays and when guys like Sutter and Rice make it the HOF loses its luster.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I think, here's the scary part...without looking it up...I would put Harold Baines in far before Edgar Martinez. There was a time Baines was the most feared hitter in the game...I don't think Edgar ever achieved that.

There was never a time when Baines was the "most feared hitter in the game". Never. His best years - 1982 to 1985 - were FAR surpassed by Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. And Wade Boggs. After that, you've got Canseco and McGwire. And then Frank Thomas.

My problem with Baines is that he was a DH who really never put up great numbers. Lots of very good numbers but nothing GREAT. I suppose you could make a case for his .304/29/94 in 1984 or his .309/22/113 in 1985. But does that in any way compare to Edgar Martinez winning 2 batting titles (hitting .327 or higher 5 times), 145 RBI in 2000 (6 seasons over 100 RBI), and career OPS+ of 147 (vs 120 for Baines)? I don't think so.

Baines wins in longevity but, in every other way, Edgar was the superior player.

Tabe