Baseball Hall of Fame Vote

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Huge Larry fan...I completely agree. I never really bought into the whole Colorado factor.. I think it's a lame excuse.

What? No Colorado factor? Here are Larry's home and road splits for his career. This includes his MTL and STL days but come on, the road hitter is a marginal all-star. The Home hitter is a HOFer.

Home Away
Games 986 1002
At Bats 3429 3478
Runs 789 566
Hits 1193 967
2B 268 203
3B 39 23
HR 215 168
RBI 747 564
BA 0.348 0.278
OBP 0.431 0.37
SLG 0.637 0.495
OPS 1.068 0.865

[abothebear]

I don't remember if this was mentioned, but I wonder if the strike has worked against the late 70s - 80s guys whose careers were winding down in the early 90s? Morris, Whitaker, Trammell, Murphy, Raines. The strike clouded their retirements, or made a clean break between their greater career narrative and their last couple below average years. A cursory review reveals almost no players (apart from the milestone achievers) who retired between 93 and 97 to have been selected to the HOF. Carlton Fisk, Ozzie Smith, and Kirby Puckett being exceptions (Fisk debuted in '69 so he doesn't quite fit the category, Puckett's selection was emotionally expedited, and Smith actually performed consistent to his career his last season and did not fade (this is where his bland career offensive numbers actually worked in his favor, there is no fading when you are bad already). Perhaps this is a coincidence, or perhaps it is not unusual anyway.

For a similar reason I think it was a big mistake, historically speaking, for Pujols to go to another team. He has divided his legacy into two halves, and one of them aint going to be pretty. If he stayed in st. louis his career narrative would seemlessly wane and people would get it, and appreciate it. Now he has set up career two to be an inevitable disappointment. The only way he will be able to sew his two career halves together is if he wins a couple world series championships for the Angels in the first few years.

Getting back to Jack Morris, I understand why people don't think Jack should be in. And it doesn't bother me that he isn't in. But I would like to see him get in.

A few posts back someone said saying he is the best of the 80's is and arbitrary thing and doesn't mean anything. While I agree with this statement as he described it, I don't think people are using that statement in that way. At least that is not how I use it. I use it as a shorthand to represent the end of that particular era in baseball. Morris's career was pretty much the last 15 years of the pre-strike - pre juiced ball/juiced bodies era. His career should be judged in relation to his peers and by the judgement of his peers. And I think a strong case can be made for him by those measures.

[ctownboy]

abothebear,

You bring up a good point about the different years there were work stopages in baseball. Some players lost the equivalent of a season (or maybe two) because of the different strikes from the 1970's to the 1990's.

As far as 1981 is concerned, Dave Concepcion had a career year as far as offense goes (116 OPS+). He was an All Star, won the Silver Slugger Award and finsihed fourth in the MVP balloting.

Oh yeah, the Reds also had the BEST record in baseball that year but DIDN'T make the Play Offs because of the strike. The owners decided that the best thing to do would be to have the winners of each half of the season to go to the Play Offs.

If the Reds had made the Play Offs that year, it is possible that they could have won the World Series. If they had, then Concepcion would have ANOTHER ring on his career resume and, according to the Phil Rizzuto supporters, that would have helped him as far as his HOF argument goes.

David

[packs]

Even if you don't think Rizzuto was a HOF player there is no doubt at all that he was a HOF Broadcaster. Whether you call him a player or a broadcaster is semantics but the bottom line is he IS a HOFer.

Dave Concepcion is not. He wasn't the fielder Vizquel or Smith are/were and has no record in the booth or a lasting contribution to baseball. Not to metion Rizzuto lost 4 YEARS in the absolute prime of his career to the war.

[Fred]

For those of you that like Larry Walker you guys gotta love Todd Helton:

Split

                  Home     Away

Games         1039       1015

AB              3688       3637

Runs            826         503

2B               296         258

3B                26             9

HR               212         135

RBI              788         520    

B.A.             .354        .291

SlgAve         .620        .478 

OPS            1.071       .869

I suppose, even with the Denver bias he's still a pretty good hitting machine.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Fred

For those of you that like Larry Walker you guys gotta love Todd Helton:

I suppose, even with the Denver bias he's still a pretty good hitting machine.

I was joking before when I blew off the Colorado factor. But yes, Walker, Gallaraga, Burks, Castilla, Helton, Holliday, Tulo. I can't help it. I've always been a fan of those Colorado sluggers. Helton power splits shouldn't be that different. Helton only played 5 seasons pre-humidor.. However, they did build that stadium with a deep outfield to account for the pre-humidor power surge. So nowadays, it's a great park for doubles and average.. Walker and Helton are still hall worthy in my book though, and Tulo's gotten off to a great start.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I was joking before when I blew off the Colorado factor. But yes, Walker, Gallaraga, Burks, Castilla, Helton, Holliday, Tulo. I can't help it. I've always been a fan of those Colorado sluggers. Helton power splits shouldn't be that different. Helton only played 5 seasons pre-humidor.. However, they did build that stadium with a deep outfield to account for the pre-humidor power surge. So nowadays, it's a great park for doubles and average.. Walker and Helton are still hall worthy in my book though, and Tulo's gotten off to a great start.

Gallaraga was one of my favorite players... i wish he had better stats.. To come back from what he went through and dominate is astounding.

I think Helton is well on his way to the HoF.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by packs

Even if you don't think Rizzuto was a HOF player there is no doubt at all that he was a HOF Broadcaster. Whether you call him a player or a broadcaster is semantics but the bottom line is he IS a HOFer.

Broadcasters aren't HOF'ers. If you look at the list of guys in the HOF'ers, there are no broadcasters on that list (as broadcasters). Broadcasters have a separate wing and are given the Ford Frick Award but they aren't HOF'ers.

Tabe

[mr2686]

Broadcasters aren't HOF'ers. If you look at the list of guys in the HOF'ers, there are no broadcasters on that list (as broadcasters). Broadcasters have a separate wing and are given the Ford Frick Award but they aren't HOF'ers.

You are technically correct, however, for the most part they are still called HOFers, and just because they are part of the broadcaster wing or the print media wing, does not diminish their accomplishments or status in the HOF museum. As a side note, many collectors that collect HOF autographs do not collect the broadcasters or sports writers, but some do and they do make for some interesting additions for the HOF collection especially when some of those members were also on some championship teams, like Jerry Coleman, Joe Garagiola, Tony Kubek, etc.

[howard38]

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[spec]

Originally Posted by mr2686

You are technically correct, however, for the most part they are still called HOFers, and just because they are part of the broadcaster wing or the print media wing, does not diminish their accomplishments or status in the HOF museum. As a side note, many collectors that collect HOF autographs do not collect the broadcasters or sports writers, but some do and they do make for some interesting additions for the HOF collection especially when some of those members were also on some championship teams, like Jerry Coleman, Joe Garagiola, Tony Kubek, etc.

Clarifying further, there is no writers wing nor a broadcasters wing at the Baseball Hall of Fame. Though writers and broadcasters perpetuate the myth by referring to their honored colleagues as Hall of Fame writers or broadcasters, the annual winners of the Spink (writers) and Frick (broadcasters) awards for lifetime contributions to the game do not have plaques in the Hall; instead their names are engraved on a plaque at the Hall's library that is much more reminiscent of the Employee of the Month plaque at your local supermarket that the plaques in the Hall. These facts are not stated to diminish the accomplishments of these men, just to set the record straight.
Bob Richardson