Baseball Hall of Fame Vote

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Scotfandango,

Dave Concepcion played against better competition (African-Americans and actual relief pitchers instead of former starters with dead arms), played for great teams that won World Series, was a better hitter and probably a better defensive Short Stop than Rizzuto and look how much HOF love he has received.

Using Baseball Reference's black ink and gray ink tables for offense and how they relate to how a player stacks up against HOF players, Concepcion scores higher than Rizzuto. Using their comparison of players in general, Concepcion compares to better players than Rizzuto.

If you think Baseball Reference puts too much weight towards the offense then remember that Concepcion and Larry Bowa were the two best defensive Short Stops in the NL until Ozzie Smith came along.

Again, if Concepcion had played in NY and accomplished these things, we would be talking about him as a Hall Of Famer now. But because we are talking about a Latin player who played in Cincinnati during the 1970's and 1980's instead of a guy from NY in the 1950's (who also had a long broadcasting career and a Money Store commercial to keep his name, face and voice in the public eye) we are not doing that.

In short, if people are using the number of World Series rings Rizzuto won (on teams that I think Dickey, DiMaggio, Ruffing, Gomez, Mantle, Berra and Ford, among others, had a LOT more to do with than Rizzuto) or how he was the GLUE for those teams (where in the HOF rules is that stated as a criteria and how many other players could that be used as a reason for their inclusion in the HOF?) then, to me, that means Rizzuto is NOT a Hall Of Fame player. Either that or there are OTHER players out there who should be getting looked at or talked about for the HOF that currently aren't.

Finally, why isn't Ted Simmons or, better yet, Joe Torre NOT being talked about as Hall Of Famers? Both put up great offensive stats as Catchers and Torre had a long and productive career as a Manager (guiding the Yankees to numerous World Series and winning rings to boot).

I have an anti-NY bias because I see too many players as being overhyped just BECAUSE they played for the Yankees (and now the Red Sox) when if they played for another team and did the same things they would be overlooked or their accomplishments put down because they didn't do them in NY.

David

I agree completely. Torre should've been in as a player...He'll get in as a MGR, but I hope that doesn't stop people from pursuing him as a player as well.. A strong case can be made for Ted Simmons. I wouldn't mind seeing him get in(but I'd be ok if he doesn't). Conception should eventually get in. If all goes well, I think it would be fitting to see the two Venezuelan #13 shortstops get in together. Imagine if the BWAA voted in Vizquel, and Veterans voted in Conception the same year. I think that would be a great thing.. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about Vizquel. He's a no brainer in my books.. Arguably one of the two best defensive SS's in history(Smith may or may not have been better), 2800+ hits, 400+ SB's, and a leader both on and off the field. According to Baseball-reference his top 8 "similar batters" in order are- Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Ozzie Smith, Bill Dahlen, Dave Conception, Luke Appling, Pee Wee Reese, and Nellie Fox. Everything about Omar screams Hall of Fame...

[Robextend]

It is a great debate because we all have our own standards and definition of "hall of famer".

I don't consider Larkin, Dawson, Rizzuto, etc...hall of famers. To me they are in the same boat as McGriff, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver, Raines, etc...

Compare Ted Simmons stats to the greatest catchers of all time and tell me why he didn't get any consideration for the HOF. Doesn't make sense to me.

[ctownboy]

robextend,

Replace Thurman Munson with Ted Simmons on those mid-1970's Yankees teams and Simmons is a Hall Of Famer.

Simmons was in the majors at a younger age than Munson and had a longer career and still his OPS+ is higher than Munson's (117 to 116). Sure, if he had lived, Munson could have put up a few more good seasons to raise his OPS+. However, if Munson had played as long as Simmons did, it is also likely that he would have had a drop off in production and his OPS+ would have fallen.

No, I don't believe in the idea that just because a guy played for the Yankees (or Red Sox) and put up good, but not great, stats for their career that they should some how get a HOF boost for it.

David

[Robextend]

Simmons closest contemporaries that are in the HOF are Bench, Fisk and Carter. Simmons had more hits, a higher batting average, more doubles and more RBI then all of them as well as being an 8 time all-star.

[ctownboy]

robextend,

Ted Simmons info From baseball-reference:

Gray Ink Batting - 95 (238), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 124 (110), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 44 (116), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Similar Batters

1. Miguel Tejada (855)
2. Alan Trammell (831)
3. Carlton Fisk (819) *
4. Joe Torre (818)
5. Gary Carter (818) *
6. Lou Whitaker (817)
7. Barry Larkin (805) *
8. Yogi Berra (805) *
9. Joe Cronin (804) *
10. Ryne Sandberg (791) *

Six of Simmons ten comparables are IN the HOF. Do the same comparison for Phil Rizzuto and see what happens.

Oh, I am sorry, that is right, Rizzuto played in New York, for the Yankees, won a bunch of rings and had Ted Williams around to influence the HOF voters.

David

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Sure, if he had lived, Munson could have put up a few more good seasons to raise his OPS+. However, if Munson had played as long as Simmons did, it is also likely that he would have had a drop off in production and his OPS+ would have fallen

Here's the dirty little secret about Thurman Munson:

He was 1 step from being washed up when he passed away. Any semblance of power was gone from his game (3 HRs in 97 games in 1979, 6 in 154 in 1978). He hit .288 in 1979 was it was obvious he was slowing down and was just about finished. If he had lived, he likely would have played through about 1981, put up another 12 HRs (tops), and 300 hits. And he still would have been short of HOF'er credentials.

Tabe