Questions about things that have been bugging me

[zljones]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I agree with Gary's assessment, I know there are advertisements from the 1871 catalog (which I used to own but dont anymore) that have all these for sale still so my guess is that they were available starting in 1870 and all teams were made at the same time and the year of the team pictured doesn't mean it was made any earlier, just pictures a slightly earlier team.

So you had a catalog Peck and Snyder from 1871 that was selling the cards, instead of giving them away? Wow, I thought they were handed out for free. How much were they charging for the cards?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by zljones

So you had a catalog Peck and Snyder from 1871 that was selling the cards, instead of giving them away? Wow, I thought they were handed out for free. How much were they charging for the cards?

I read in a 1910 era baseball book that the store offered the cards for fifty cents apiece. I would think though that if you were a good customer and spent some money with them, they would toss you a few freebies.

[E93]

Questions about first baseball "cards" are complicated and depend on how one defines a "card". I think of Peck and Snyders as "trade cards". I am sure we will never have consensus on first card stuff. I think of 1886 N167 Old Judges as the first set of baseball cards in the common, unqualified, no-explanation-necessary sense of the term.
JimB

[Leon]

Jim B....good point on defining a "card." I can't define one either but I know one when I see one... and the Peck and Snyder's are certainly baseball cards.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Leon

I can't define one either but I know one when I see one.

Didn't a senator say something like that about pornography?
JimB

[Joe_G.]

Zach, N28 & N29 are both 1888 issues. As Barry already cited, there is Clarkson with Boston. Both sets also feature Detroit players (Bennett & Getzien) and in each case they are in pinstriped uniforms which debuted in 1888. Any date other than 1888 would be incorrect.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by E93

Didn't a senator say something like that about pornography?
JimB

Justice Potter Stewart

[Fred]

When I said that the 52 Mantle card was his "Topps rookie card" I was being facetious. I really don't believe in that rookie card stuff. I like looking at a 1976 Aaron card with all those dingers being shown. All the stats, now that's a card!

I suppose you could get all caught up in the "it's his first card" crud but that just doesn't mean a whole lot to me, neither does having the FIRST Cobb card or first Wagner card. I'm happy just owning any of them and if it just happens to be their first card, then so be it.

[zljones]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I read in a 1910 era baseball book that the store offered the cards for fifty cents apiece. I would think though that if you were a good customer and spent some money with them, they would toss you a few freebies.

Wow 50 cents was alot back then! My packs of 1991 Topps that I bought when I was kid were less!

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I read in a 1910 era baseball book that the store offered the cards for fifty cents apiece. I would think though that if you were a good customer and spent some money with them, they would toss you a few freebies.

Barry, I believe the 1871 P & S book Rhys is referring to had them at the time for sale at 10-cents each or one could get a dozen for a buck. There were several to choos from. It has been several years since Rhys showed me the book but that is my recollection. The P&S book was their 1871 equipment catalog--really interesting book as I also believe you could buy real Cincinnati Reds jerseys, their own style ball, etc. (obviously they weren't gamers or anything but you could buy the same exact jersey's direct from P&S).

[drc]

Even if the 1869 Peck and Snyder Reds cards were being sold in 1871, they could have still have been made in in 1869. I bet Steiner is selling Derek Jeter autographs that are two years old.

[barrysloate]

That's interesting Rhett. The book I got the fifty cents price from was Base Ball and Base Ball Players by Elwood Roff, a pretty rare book published in 1912. Maybe by 1871 they were remaindered, having already used up their market interest. Possibly a hot item in 1870, but yesterday's papers by 1871.

[benjulmag]

I think likely the P&S cards appeared before 1870.

For one, the Atlantics card says "1868" on it. If the card first appeared in 1870, why issue the 1868 team as opposed to the 1869 or 1870 team? The composition of the team had changed over that period, and inasmuch as the cards were issued to promote P&S products, one would expect the merchant would want the cards to depict the current team so as to maximize customer interest in the cards.

Second, as was discussed in a previous thread, likely there were separate printings of the Red Stockings card, as reflected in (1) the ink color used (the colored inks suggesting an 1870 issuance (Red Stockings --red, Athletics -- blue, Mutuals -- green)) , (2) the ad on the verso (the ice skate ad suggesting a winter 1869-70 issuance), and (3) the contrast of the photo (the cards with the red ink have consistently worse contrast than the black-ink cards, suggesting an end-of-negative-run (i.e., 1870) printing).

[GaryPassamonte]

I keep wondering why the P & S trade cards were not advertised for sale in catalogs before 1871. Did P & S start with the 1869 Red Stockings CdVs as a giveaway? Did these CdVs gradually evolve into the trade cards? Some Red Stocking CdVs have P & S advertising and some don't. Were the blank backed or team lineup on reverse Red's CdVs giveaways, while the Red's CdVs with P & S advertising the precursors to the trade cards?
Another interesting unrelated observation is that only the Red Stockings and the Athletics from the P & S series come in CdV form. Given the popularity of the other teams pictured on P & S trade cards, it's perplexing that no CdVs exist with those images.

Corey- That is an interesting point regarding the Atlantics. Since they had recently defeated the Red Stocking in 1870, it seems an image of that famous team would be issued by P & S to capitalize on the local team's great victory. Does an image of the Atlantics exist that is later than the 1868 version? It's possible there was no later image of the Atlantics.