T206Resource.com - a new T206 site

[judsonhamlin]

Okay guys, great site - and i've barely worked through part of it. Like Barry, i might be interested in contributing. Congrats!

[T206.org]

Very well organized and executed, guys!!

[Piratedogcardshows]

Great article section I look forward to more in the future.Thanks for the hard work put in to all involved.

[ChiefBenderForever]

First off congratulations !! If the Ty Cobb back wasn't included in the back run I would've been very dissapointed but it was and is ! Will be an awesome work in progress that will never be complete, again congrats and thank you to all the people who worked and added contributions to this !!

[tedzan]

Tim

A couple of comments......

(1)....Regarding your SOVEREIGN 350-Only checklist, you indicate that Bresnahan (batting) and Downey (fielding) as "confirmed".

Not so !

My research shows that these two subjects are SOVEREIGN 350 "No-Prints".


(2)....I'm quite skeptical of your claim that Crawford (throwing) "was not printed with a SOVEREIGN 150 back". My experience in
completing a SOVEREIGN 402-card set (and since, going for a Master set) indicates that 12 (perhaps more) SOVEREIGN 150/350
subjects were Short-Printed with respect to their SOVEREIGN 150 backs.

For example, the majority of the Wiltse (portrait, no cap) cards are found with the SOVEREIGN 350 back. The SOVEREIGN 150 card
of this subject is rare enough that the SGC pop reports indicate that NONE have been graded. It took me about 5 years to acquire
this one......





Furthermore, Brian Weisner has already identified a Crawford (throwing) with a SOVEREIGN 150 back in Bill Brown's super-set spreadsheet.

Check it out ?


Regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

As I told the owners of the site I would un-sticky this today, I have done so. I wish them all the best and hope to contribute more info in the future.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
The entry on the Super Set is not correct... I own a 350 Sovereign Crawford:




Be well Brian

[tedzan]

I own a SOVEREIGN 350 Crawford, too.

I have been hunting for a 150 for 6 years now. When I recently found the Wiltse 150 (above scan) after 5 years,
it gave me hope that the Crawford 150 would eventually surface.

What does Art Martineau say on this subject ?


Merry Christmas to you, old friend.

TED Z

[rebelsart]

Hello Ted,
I began working on my T206 Detroit master set in the mid 1970's. Collecting was much slower in those years, but with the internet boom it became easier in the last 15+ years.
In over 30 years of looking I have never seen the T206 Crawford, throwing pose, with the Sovereign 150 back. While I will still search, the no-print lists make me believe this card will not surface with Sovereign 150.

Again, thanks to all who are enjoying the new website.
Art Martineau

[tedzan]

Thanks for the response. While I will continue to search for this Crawford 150, too.......I think you have
pretty well convinced me that it is a No-Print.

Thanks again. And I haven't forgotten that I still owe you a dinner regarding my "A-B-C-COUPON-D" bet.

Will you be at Baltimore this Summer ?


TED Z

[insidethewrapper]

Art: How many Detroit Tigers have you confirmed ? The site indicated 321 different Detroit cards confirmed and 71 possible but not yet confirmed. I was interested in that I'm trying to compile the ultimate Detroit checklist. thanks Mike

[rebelsart]

I have confirmed 330 T206 Detroit front/back combinations (including 10 blank backs). My confirmed list is only cards that I have personally seen.
Art

[ethicsprof]

A very helpful site with much erudition. Thank you.
Since taming the Monster a few years back, i've spent some time seeking original photos which serves as the bases for various cards---not limited to
T206 since I've become a ravenous type collector. I appreciate very much
your photo gallery but was hoping for a bit of a narrative of the photos offered---date,photographer,etc. Is this something you're planning to do or
is the task outside your purview or did I just miss it somehow given my ancient computer skills.
best,
barry

[Abravefan11]

Hi Barry - That's a great idea and something I'm sure we'll consider. Ultimately if there is any information about the set, including information about the photos, we would like to provide as much as possible for those that may be interested. At this early stage in gathering and loading the photos, we have only included the images themselves.

There are many collectors and researches that have a greater focus on one aspect of the set than most. As they continue to contribute their knowledge to the site we will be able to expand the amount of detail about each topic.

Thank you for the suggestion.

[rp12367]

I worked a double today and had a few hours of down time this evening. Spent quite awhile looking at the site. Really nice job, great info, easy to navigate. Congrats on a job (labor of love) well done. Ralph

[Jantz]

Hi Tim

Henry Yee sold this photo last week on Ebay. I agree with Barry, it would be nice if you could add the specs to the photos someday. Nice website!

Clark Griffith Carl Horner c.1903

Jantz

[FrankWakefield]

First and foremost, you guys have done well putting together that site. Many collectors, in years to come, will benefit from that. Thank you.

In looking in the "About Us" section, I see a list of Senior Contributors and another list of Contributors. I looked through there to see if Ted Zanidakis was listed. He's not. And I can envision that he didn't actually contribute to the site. But certainly the site has benefited from, and realistically has used material that should be attributed to Ted, to Scot Reader, to Barry Arnold, and to Lew Lipset, just to name a few. Those guys did some great work on ferreting out the nuances of the white border tobacco cards. And their efforts and work product that was so graciously shared with collectors deserves recognition. Maybe an additional section should be added to the "About Us" section that was styled Acknowledgements, or something like that.

Please consider that.

And thanks again.

[Abravefan11]

Frank - Thanks for your comments.

First let me say, the information on the site concerning the composition of the set, checklists and other research, is the work of the people listed on the About Us page.

The group of us working on the site have great respect for Richard Egan, Lew Lipset, Bill Hietman and many others that have advanced the hobbies knowledge of the T206 set. We have talked about adding a section on the website devoted to just this topic, but it just hasn't happened yet. There is a lot of content people would like to see on the site and we're working all the time to add new material to cover as much possible, but it's going to take time. We are listening and appreciate the feedback.

The "About Us" page is specific to T206Resource.com. When we began the project this page was created because we didn't want there to be any question who was putting out the information. As more content was added, and people began sharing their information and collections, we thought it would be a nice way to say thank you for their contributions to the site. In a few rare instances within the site itself we mention contributors by name, otherwise everyone receives the same acknowledgment whether they share a little or a lot. We believe that this shows the community nature of the site and how when collectors work together it can benefit us all.

We appreciate all of the hard work by those that have come before us, and look forward to the work ahead.

Again thank you Frank and everyone else for your comments.

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Tim.

I see you added Bill Heitman and Richard Egan to the names I mentioned. I agree with their inclusion in some Acknowledgements section. I overlooked them; as I did Jamie Hull and Bill Brown. There are others. And while these guys didn't "contribute" to T206resource, nonetheless their work created a body of information that was a major starting point for you guys. Golly, how many of us have wondered about how much money Scot Reader would have made if he'd sold that great tome of his, rather than throw it out there free. (Thanks, again, Scot!!) My thinking is that some 21st century collector will find that fine site, realize how great it is, and have no idea of those that went before.

Thanks.

Wish all of you safe Holidays.

Frank

[Abravefan11]

Frank,

Bill and Scot both, albeit small, have mentions within the text of the site already. Like I said before we will be chronicling more of the history of the sets researchers as time goes on but it's going to take time to get everything on the site.

We want to cover publications which will include many of the names already mentioned as well as Mark Peavy and others. Rather than just have a list of random names we want to discuss their contributions in some detail.

I know this may not be evident on the surface but none of the previous great work on the sets composition was the bases for ours. We didn't use anyone elses findings as a starting point. We went back to the beginning, cleaned the slate completely, and started with just the confirmed cards and the sets documentation and took a fresh look. This is what allowed us to see the set in a completely new way.

Frank, I appreciate your concern about the recognition of, and respect for, the pioneers of this great set and I assure you they will get their proper due on the site in time.

Have a safe and happy holiday as well.

Tim

[FrankWakefield]

You're right, it's not evident. For example, you have a Super Prints checklist. That term is Scot Reader's creation; evidently you must have started with your 'clean slate' and then arrived at the same term he coined after he had discovered them. T206 isn't a 'clean slate' term...

I just think that the longer that site goes without acknowledgements then the greater the time for some collector who doesn't know any different to find the site and think you guys created all of that from a clean slate. Even if some of the site organizers have gotten crossways with those folks in times past, they still deserve recognition. And the lack of acknowledgements detracts from the veracity and credibility of the site. Which is a shame, because you guys have put together a pretty good thing, there. I'm impressed with it. And as cantankerous as I am that is not something easily done. You guys aren't as ornery as me... so get to work on some Acknowledgements, posthaste, please Sir.

[tedzan]

PLAGIARISM..........
The act of "stealing" a person's hard work and intellectual property, without accrediting this person.

There are many more members of Net54 that you have advertently dismissed, who have contributed their time, effort and expertise over
the past 8 years (or more) on this forum. You can continue to deny that you have not gleaned information from them to form your new
site....but Tim, that "dog does not hunt"....anymore.

There is Scot Reader, Bill Brown, Barry Sloate, Barry Arnold, Frank Wakefield, Jamie Hull, Dan Koochin, Darren Duet, Drew Apoldite, Judson
Hamlin, Jeremy Jones (and more). All of whom, not only have posted meaningful & worthwhile information regarding T206's; but also, other
White-Bordered cards.

Special recognition goes to Scot Reader. For you to exclude Scot's "Inside T206" in the "ARTICLES" section of your site is a really egregious
omission that tells us a lot about where you are coming from.


Furthermore
You claim that your data is yours (and your group's)......however, in your SOVEREIGN 350 checklist you indicate that Downey (fielding) is a
confirmed SOVEREIGN 350 card. Well, when I posted my "FYI....SOVEREIGN" thread, I had inadvertently omitted this subject in my NO-PRINT
list (it has since been added to my NO-PRINT list).

Now tell me....anyone here on Net54....what is the probability of Tim independently replicating this same mistake ?

Virtually impossible......unless Tim (or one of his group) copied my information on these SOVEREIGN 350 cards ? ?


I am continuing to review your checklists. I have found some more errors. You asked for inputs. I have already reported 2 of these errors
to you in an earlier post in this thread. You chose not to respond and that says a lot for your attitude regarding some of us Net54er's.
Who, apparently, you feel that you are "competing" with since you joined this forum (not that many years ago)..


So, right here I am offering.....$100 each.....to any one who can produce these two SOVEREIGN 350 cards that you list as confirmed......

Bresnahan (batting)

Downey (fielding)


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Please accept the following comments in the spirit of collegiality that is intended. As one who has spent his life in the academic world, I do think that it is a mistake to omit those who have been part of the history of research before your distinguished offerings. I recognize that effort has been made in this direction but needs further work. As you well know, I'm sure, there is a never a blank slate in pure scholarship---the highest accomplishments never arise in vacuo--- so that acknowledging those who have been important to the debate(even those with whom you may have disagreed or parted ways with for critical reasons) is a must. This should always be done as assiduously and comprehensively as possible to match the breadth and depth of what you're now offering as a scholarly contribution.
I used the word 'erudition' to describe your work in an earlier post because I
believe it is scholarly and academic. I do think the omission of key contributors in the history of research, as explicated above, should be revisited and further elucidated.
Again, I do appreciate your erudite gifts to the the field of T206 scholarship
and hope that my discussion is helpful.
all the best,
Barry

[wonkaticket]

PLAGIARISM?

Ted, no disrespect but you have taken information shared with you from folks including me and posted it here as your own or with no mention of sources short of a select few folks for years. I would be careful dropping the plagiarism bomb…people in glass houses you know.

I’m also not going to get into heated debate with you on this either. But if you look back I’m sure you can think of times when you have used someone’s nugget of info when typing out your threads without taking time to mention or call credit to that person for the piece of info re shared.

I think we all can a be a bit guilty of that after all it’s a hobby in which much of the knowledge is word of mouth vs. written.

As for prints and no-prints within Sovereign I’ll let you Tim & Jim hash that out.

John

P.S. To the rest of the guys Barry, Frank, Ted etc. these guys spent a lot of time on this so in the 11th hour begin busting chops on some names you feel they need to add is silly IMO. In the end it's their site they could have as easily listed no names like Chans site. I'm also not taking this stance because my name is listed Tim & Jim can drop my name I could care less still a good site. All I care about is collecting cards having fun and no scammers.

[danmckee]

So.. How's the weather? It is raining here in Baltimore.

[wonkaticket]

It's always sunny in Philadelphia Dan, thanks for asking.

[Mikehealer]

Merry Christmas everyone.

[danmckee]

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you Mike! Is Healer really your last name or is that your profession? I may need your services. Dan.

[Jaybird]

It's a testament to the quality of the site that people are so anxious to get their names up there. C'mon guys, let's just let the site develop a little bit, add corrections/contributions when they can and just let it brew and steep.

A few weeks ago this site didn't exist. Now everyone is fighting over what should and shouldn't be on there. Nothing on the internet is gospel. I think any person surfing the internet realizes that the work of a website is based on the experiences and information of the authors. THERE IS ALWAYS A POINT OF VIEW.

I disagree with the fact that everyone is a rube, and when presented with misinformation or fact, doesn't know which is right and which is wrong. People make up their own minds and aren't so easily swayed by a website. To assume that everyone takes every morsel from a website to be gospel and not the work of humans is really putting yourself on a much higher plane than everyone else.

This is a general statement but one just meant to say, let's enjoy the hobby, let the authors of this website develop at their own pace and filter and sift the information as they wish. It is theirs to do as they wish.

If you want to start a T206ResourceHaters.com, I'm sure the name is available (for a fee).

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

PLAGIARISM?

P.S. To the rest of the guys Barry, Frank, Ted etc. these guys spent a lot of time on this so in the 11th hour begin busting chops on some names you feel they need to add is silly IMO. In the end it's their site they could have as easily listed no names like Chans site. I'm also not taking this stance because my name is listed Tim & Jim can drop my name I could care less still a good site. All I care about is collecting cards having fun and no scammers.

I really have to second this point. This site was put together by these people and can choose the content and contributors they feel are warranted. This is a great resource and it didn't take long to get attacked here. Enjoy the site for what it is. you can always start your own and put your own contributors.

That being said, great site guys & Happy Holidays to all,

Lee

[sportscardpete]

Kind of sad how much crap they are getting for creating the site.

Great job guys, again. Love all the articles as well, especially the Olbermann/Doyle story.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you Mike! Is Healer really your last name or is that your profession? I may need your services. Dan.

Sorry Dan, it's just my name. Maybe a good bartender will do the trick.
Take care, Mike

[sox1903wschamp]

Thank you. Nice Site.

[Ericc22]

Just want you to know I really appreciate this site - what a great resource. Thanks for putting it up and thanks to all for creating it. Looking forward to seeing the site develop.

[DaveW]

Wow! What a great site. It must have been a lot of work to put together.
Just one suggestion:
- Only some of the pictures (in the proofs gallery) have the T206Resources.com
overprint on them. Why is that? Shouldn't they all have that to protect the
images from being stolen (and appearing on EBay someday)? I was able
to copy an image from one of the galleries to my computer easily. I think that
there are other ways to protect the images also.

[insidethewrapper]

Great site. Like the authors of the site said, this is a work in progress and will be updated and updated for years. It 's great and I think everyone wants the most accurate information available and I think this site will deliver.

The site has just been born, let's let it grow up. It takes time and errors will be made.

[Gradedcardman]

WOW !! I get under the weather for a couple of days and BOOOOOM !!! As a long standing collector of this incredible set I want to thank everyone involved from the early years of collecting to today. All of you have added alot of information over the years and I thank you all. I am sure we will continue to find out more about this set as time goes on thanks to the continuous efforts of us all. I hope one day to be able to contribute to the collecting of this set to my fellow hobbyists.

Happy Holidays !!

[RickGallway]

Originally Posted by tedzan

PLAGIARISM..........
The act of "stealing" a person's hard work and intellectual property, without accrediting this person.

Envy (also called invidiousness) is best defined as a resentful emotion that "occurs when a person lacks another's (perceived) superior quality, achievement, or possession and either desires it or wishes that the other lacked it."

Spray some Windex on your wounds and get over it Ted!

[FrankWakefield]

I praised the site... it's good. it's useful. I thanked them. I didn't sling crap at it, I'm not envious, and I do care about the weather in Baltimore.

But notwithstanding the 'clean slate' claim, there should be acknowledgements to Mr. Egan and his list, Mr. Hietman and his Monster, Mr. Lipset and volume 3 of his Encyclopedia, Scot Reader and his Inside T206, the massive collecting, collating, and information sharing of Ted Z, and others, Mr. Arnold, Mr. Sloate, there are more... The guys that put that site together have feuded with some of those that deserve recognition. The makers of that fine site should acknowledge what went before, and failing to do that they detract from their own site.

I don't need mention there. But I have come to regret selling some cards to some of the folks associated with the site. And I still say it's a good site. Thanks again, guys, for putting that together. And if me thinking that has some of you thinking I'm silly, that's fine with me. Maybe silly me should cut and paste the entire Net54 Vintage Pre-War baseball card site, cut out your various names, and create a book about old ball cards. No need to attribute anything to anyone, evidently.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I praised the site... it's good. it's useful. I thanked them. I didn't sling crap at it, I'm not envious, and I do care about the weather in Baltimore.

But notwithstanding the 'clean slate' claim, there should be acknowledgements to Mr. Egan and his list, Mr. Hietman and his Monster, Mr. Lipset and volume 3 of his Encyclopedia, Scot Reader and his Inside T206, the massive collecting, collating, and information sharing of Ted Z, and others, Mr. Arnold, Mr. Sloate, there are more... The guys that put that site together have feuded with some of those that deserve recognition. The makers of that fine site should acknowledge what went before, and failing to do that they detract from their own site.

I don't need mention there. But I have come to regret selling some cards to some of the folks associated with the site. And I still say it's a good site. Thanks again, guys, for putting that together.

Well-said, Frank.

(edited to remove my comments which added nothing to the conversation that hasn't already been said).

[tedzan]

There is no "envy" regarding this new T206 site on my part. If you'd bother to read thru some of these posts you would catch my initial response to
this site at post #55 ........

" Quite a cool site, well done....and, very user-friendly. "


It appears that you are a newbie on Net54; therefore, you most likely are unaware of the year-long "bashing" towards me on this forum by Tim & Jim.
Telling everyone that my prior research regarding T206 cards is fraught with errors. When this same research has been lauded by most on this forum
for the past 7 years.

ENVY....that's a nasty 4-letter word that best describes Tim & Jim to a tee.

So, now I discover that this new site has errors in its checklists and I dare to bring this to their attention.

Well look Rick, have you ever heard the expressions......

Turn-about is fair play

Or perhaps......

What goes around, comes around


Next time, before you post what you did, try to be more informed. Instead of jumping to unfounded conclusions.

And,for now, I will ignore your subtle ethninc slur in that last line of yours.


TED Z

[batsballsbases]

First let me state Nice Job guys on the site. As a non collector of t206s it was great to see something like that put together. I loved to look at all the info that was placed there and the site will continue to evolve as more information becomes available. But really guys this is why many of us have stopped posting . The stink some of you make about who should get credit,who should be mentioned,whos horn needs to be blown! Jees cant you just give credit where credit is due!. Then we start with Plagiarism! Some of you are grown men that act like 5 year olds. Like it was stated by someone else in one of the posts if you want credit (or think you need ego boosting ) start your own site. Then you can put your name on it in big red capital letters.

[Runscott]

Edited to remove my comments, which were useless. My apologies - I was bored.

[batsballsbases]

And you know what scott I could really care less . Here have a rolly eye for your trouble

[atx840]

Originally Posted by tedzan

PLAGIARISM..........
So, right here I am offering.....$100 each.....to any one who can produce these two SOVEREIGN 350 cards that you list as confirmed......
TED Z

Do fake scans count? I kid, I kid. Happy Holidays everyone!

Here is a xmas tree made out of backs.

[wonkaticket]

Great tree card image!

[tiger8mush]

haha, awesome Chris!

[FrankWakefield]

NICE TREE, Chris. It brought me a smile. Thanks.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

And you know what scott I could really care less . Here have a rolly eye for your trouble

Me either - I have removed my comments. Good luck learning about T206's - you have the only resource you need, regardless of where the information came from.

[fmcjfc]

Great start to your site. I'm glad to see the world is 1 step closer to a virtual monster. Any thoughts of attaching scans to the checklist(s)? It would be fun to watch the superset develop from both a completeness and quality standpoint as new and/or "better" examples poured in from the T206 community.