Hunt's Philly Show and David Hunt

[tedzan]

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.


TED Z

[danmckee]

All very good points indeed. I sent David this link so maybe we can get a guest appearance from him. Though I can't blame him for not coming on here, I have left in pieces from this forum many times.

As I said, I do not have the answers, but it would be nice to have a show to set up at that was attended by a decent amount of people and was affordable for the dealer.

[Leon]

With all due respect to David I also think he is going about having his show be a success the wrong way. The way to succeed is to offer a better value/product, not tell people they can't play if they also play somewhere else.

Can anyone imagine if I said, well, if I see you posting on another chat board I won't let you post on this one? There would be a mass exodus and rightfully so. Lets all hope David changes his exclusionary practices...

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by tedzan

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.


TED Z

$600 just to set up???

[tedzan]

I'm being "generous" by stating $600.

I did the first 5 shows (of the 8) at Valley Forge, and it cost me $700 for a 10' x 10' booth each time I set up.

For comparison....the most Bob Schmierer charged us for the traditional Philly Show (Ft Washington and Reading, PA) was $350 for a similar size booth.

And, I had no qualms about paying the $350....since those shows were tremendous. As were the old Philly Shows at Willow Grove.

And, the best show I've had at Valley Forge was a fraction of the old Philly shows in terms of sales, trades, walk-ins, etc.


TED Z

[autograf]

I don't have a dog in the fight being stuck here in the Midwest but have been to the Philly show a couple times years ago when it was Ft. Washington and have been to a bunch of Hunt Auctions here in Louisville and in Philly area. $600-$700 for a 10x10 booth is STRONG dinero.....that's getting close to National type money.....okay, maybe less than that but much more than your run of the mill show. Plus the $8/day is pretty strong too. Guess it's Philly and I'm sure the venue is pricey. Unfortunately, ALL shows suffer as a result of economy, ebay, etc. There are NO decent shows in this area when there used to be TONS of shows. I used to to 6-8 shows a year and quit in 1995. Coincidentally, that was about the same time ebay popped up. As they've grown the shows have declined a similar amount. I'm not sure at $700 for a 10x10 booth at $8/day I could see someone losing money on a show if they had a decent amount of dealers and attendees but those autograph guests can suck the profits right out of a show too depending on ticket sales. Anyway, part of all of it is the ever-changing market and how we buy/sell collectibles. The exclusionary thing is just a little noggin-scratching though. As a promoter, I could see they'd want to protect their turf, even though they bought their turf a couple years ago after someone had run it successfully for many many years. At least you all have shows up there to have to gripe about! Hopefully it all works out one way or the other......

[jbsports33]

Ted,

350.00 is about what we pay for the Boston show for one space (we get two), we stopped traveling outside of New England because the cost of travel and table fees like Valley Forge forced us to stay closer to home. We setup at Reading and Ft Washington with no issues and the room rates seemed a bit better as well. I would like to start traveling back down to PA and other surrounding states, but the cost is too much. Maybe it will get better, so I can see your great selection of T206s again.

Jimmy

[prewarsports]

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

[Jaybird]

I agree that the autograph guests aren't pulling people towards the vintage cards. Maybe they come by a table and see a $5 card that "looks neat" and buy it, but I wouldn't think that's the same guy buying a $500 Collins McCarthy card.

I'd prefer a smaller show with more vintage dealers and people that know when you come there, that's what you'll get. I'd be extremely loyal to a show like that and think a lot of other people would as well if you knew you were going to see great dealers and an interesting assortment of vintage.

Also, as I've said before, who needs Sunday at a show? Let's save everyone time and money and bag Sunday and it'll be cheaper for everyone.

For Hunt, I think he caters to both groups which is why he does the autographs. Those people bid in his auctions as do the purely vintage collectors. So, he needs to do both. But, Rhys makes a good point, why should the vintage dealers be subsidizing the autograph guests if the return isn't likely to come from those same guests?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

100% agree, I spend a fair amount on cards and never once gone to a show to get an autograph or been drawn to a show for autographs.

John

[Fred]

I've never been drawn to a show for the autographs...

I do remember a Fort Washington show I attended years back. I thought it was just a good as a National in terms of quality of dealers and inventory of vintage material.

You guys on the east coast have the best shows. On the west coast we get garbage... (unless it's a National and there haven't been many of those in Anaheim).

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

I, too, agree. There are collectors for every part of the sports card & memorabilia hobby. There are a bunch of collectors only into the shiny stuff. Some only into autographs. Some only into game-worn memorabilia. So on and so forth. So, it depends on what your focus is. Here it's vintage baseball cards.