Anybody else sick of MLB?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Huh...I find this whole thread...interesting?! Base ball is the grandest of all of America's games...quite possibly the worlds...in my opinion...it's history is rich...older than most other sports...yet riddled with controversy.

Sounds kinda similar to the hobby...of collecting BB cards. Many years ago...the hobby was about the joy of collecting...the thrill of the hunt...and the comeraderie amongst fellow collectors. Then...money got in the way...kinda like the game of baseball.

And when money got in the way of baseball...players started looking for an advantage to make more money...and to pad their statistics.

And when money got in the way of the hobby of collecting bb cards...and other bb collectibles...the crooks put their best foots forward by:

-trimming cards
-adding color to cards
-ironing cards
-stretching cards
-Wiwagging cards
-adding paper to cords
-removing color/type from cards
-basically creating fake cards

...all in the name to "pad" the grades...to ultimately make them more money.

Like Baseball...this hobby is great...will always be great in many ways...and will always be flawed as well...like everything in life...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

Peter - very insightful post. I would go further and say that both reflect changes in our entire society - what's accepted and what's not, morals, etc. In my opinion it's all heading sort of downhill ala-Rome - while we are making improvements in a lot of areas (like civil rights, more democratic governments, etc.), hand-in-hand with this is more greed, moral decay, legalized corruption, etc. Obviously most wouldn't agree with me - if they did, it wouldn't be happening.

[barrysloate]

I agree with you Scott. It seems like wherever you turn fraud and corruption are part of business as usual. Just look at what's happening in our hobby- go over to the memorabilia side and read the thread about the bad Babe Ruth autographed balls. Pretty depressing stuff.

[alanu]

For better or worse, I think the technology, the media and the availability of information make things seem like they are getting worse, when in reality fraud, cheating, etc. has been going on forever.

As far as the media, they latch onto all of the bad stories, and rarely do you hear about the good deeds done by professional athletes.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

+1. Exactly how I feel, Peter. How can anyone not love baseball after watching Game 6 of the World Series this year?

Matt

[ullmandds]

"You want to hold the institutions and people who run our country up to the same standards as athletes ?"

Johny...the people who run this country and business institutions have proven themselves to be the scum of the earth...greedy muther f?#$ers! Not much difference between some greedy athletes and them except their behavior affects many many more peoples lives then athletes!

Runscott...I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by alanu

For better or worse, I think the technology, the media and the availability of information make things seem like they are getting worse, when in reality fraud, cheating, etc. has been going on forever.

As far as the media, they latch onto all of the bad stories, and rarely do you hear about the good deeds done by professional athletes.

At least here in Seattle, they love running stories about the great things that athletes are doing. Some of it is quite impressive, and it gives me a great feeling about the sport. You are right - with all the scandals, it's easy to forget about the athletes who are trying to be role models and help their communities.

[edhans]

I would avoid a rush to judgement on this one. The first test supposedly showed testosterone levels "twice as high as any previously recorded". the second test, requested by Braun, presumably on a different sample, showed no trace whatsoever of abnormal levels. Braun's reps claim that it would have been impossible for the testosterone levels to return to normal in so short a time span. It's hard for me to believe that with so much at stake and with the rigorous testing in place now, that any athlete would knowingly put a banned substance in his/her body. Stay tuned...

[dstudeba]

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

[edhans]

Dan,
I'm not naive enough to suggest that there aren't any players who try to cheat. If Braun did indeed knowingly take PEDs, it was a very poorly thought out choice. A young, established star with a lucrative multi year contract (or two) in his future stood very little to gain by such a course. Just wanted to point out that there remains a few conflicting facts that will need to be reconciled before we pass judgement.

Best Regards,

Ed

[alanu]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

Cyclists and Olympic athletes are subject to a 2 year ban on the first offense and they still keep doping and getting caught so I'm sure with the less stringent testing in baseball and football, some players are still going to juice up and try to get away with it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by alanu

Cyclists and Olympic athletes are subject to a 2 year ban on the first offense and they still keep doping and getting caught so I'm sure with the less stringent testing in baseball and football, some players are still going to juice up and try to get away with it.

Interestingly, some cyclists and runners claim they do it because they couldn't be competitive in their sports if they didn't. No condoning, but hard to argue with such logic: dope up and be an athlete, or don't dope up and work at Burger King.

But guys like Clemens, Bonds, Canseco, etc. (the elite) - they could have played clean and still made a good living. With them it was about fame and/or money, not survival doing something they loved.

[alanu]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Interestingly, some cyclists and runners claim they do it because they couldn't be competitive in their sports if they didn't. No condoning, but hard to argue with such logic: dope up and be an athlete, or don't dope up and work at Burger King.

But guys like Clemens, Bonds, Canseco, etc. (the elite) - they could have played clean and still made a good living. With them it was about fame and/or money, not survival doing something they loved.

I agree, not that it's right, but it's easier to see why some guy would take something if it was the difference from being a lifetime Triple A guy or a major leaguer, but with the aforementioned players they could have been major leaguers without juicing up.

[dstudeba]

Ed,

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Braun to do it. Bonds didn't anger me as much as a borderline player taking drugs because Bonds didn't take away someone's job, he was awesome with or without drugs.
The point I am trying to make is that MLB wants people to believe that the game is clean now because of the testing, which I believe is a farce.

- Dan

[edhans]

Agreed on most points, Dan. I think the game is cleaner than 10-15 years ago, which is probably not saying much. More still needs to be done.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by edhans

Agreed on most points, Dan. I think the game is cleaner than 10-15 years ago, which is probably not saying much. More still needs to be done.

And in relating this to the vintage card hobby I do think it's cleaner, especially with respect to shilling and other types of operational fraud, than it was 5-15 yrs ago. Still probably a ways to go but with law enforcement taking an active role in the hobby I do feel things are much better. I don't collect pointy cornered cards though .

[steve B]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

That was one of my thoughts when Selig was claiming baseball had the most rigorous testing program. Riders in the Tour de France get urine tested nearly every stage, and the stage winners get blood tested. And there is a 0 tolerance policy -Eat a poppy seed bagel, it's a positive test for opiates and a 2 year ban unless you've got proof like a breakfast reciept.

That's not to say that cycling is clean, or really ever has been. Guys who rode in the 50's and 60's openly admit getting amphetamines duringthe race, and 70's riders have said the early hematocrit testing for blood doping was ignored. (max level was 50, the blood would be taken and an hour later the lab guy would tel the team "49.5, you're OK" - one guy thinks that was a team average)



What's fascinating is some of the non PED performances. Jim Thome comes to mind in Baseball.
And the international cycling federation released a list showing the top riders and the level to which they were suspect - yes, that's right suspect. Have the wrong doctor, ride for the wrong team, miss a bit of paperwork or train in the wrong place with the wrong guys and you get tested more often.

One name stood out - Fabian Cancellara. Listed as absolutely NOT suspect. Consider that he wins time trials, and event practiacally made for PEDs by huge margins like nearly a minute and a half over the 2nd place rider in the 09 world championship. That's a miute and a half over the second best clean rider, and much more over guys who have been caught doping. Id have to consider those wins to be some of the most dominant performances in any sport, maybe similar to a clean pitcher holding a juiced bonds to 0 for 40.

On another note, I sometimes think that the test results are the result of sloppy lab work. Floyd landis was negative one day, positive for Testoserone the next than negative again. And lost his appeal.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

On another note, I sometimes think that the test results are the result of sloppy lab work. Floyd landis was negative one day, positive for Testoserone the next than negative again. And lost his appeal.

Steve B

...then admitted guilt. The system worked in his case.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by drc

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.

and female body building

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

and female body building

Don't get me excited.

What did the horse say to Sarah Jessica Parker?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I have read all the posts blasting the game and its' players and appreciate everyone's opinions.

I was also impressed by the posters notes of his own physical prowess, it puts my 57 year old body to shame. I have read nine books on Babe Ruth and I can assure you that he was one of the prime physical specimens of his day, some actually said a freak of nature.

When the Marines tested Ted Williams he broke every record they had for vision and reflexes. Both Mantle and Maris were considered athletic marvels in their regions.

As far as testing goes, MLB's program has some holes but it is so far ahead of the other pro sports leagues it is embarassing. The NFL refuses to test for anything that it thinks it will find. Look at the size of the players and their DEATH rate before the age of 50, it is like watching the ancient gladiators when you watch a game. The NHL basically does not test for anything, period. The NBA would be down to a dozen players if they just tested for grass!

I enjoy the history of the game and while I love reading about the great players I am not blind to their warts. Through a several decade involvement with SABR there are few days that pass when I am not researching the game and its' past.

My collecting interests parallel my love for the history of the game.

Much of how I respect and enjoy it is best expressed in a poem by Ernie Harwell that I think and hope encompasses the scope of the game;

"Baseball is the President tossing out the first ball of the season and a scrubby schoolboy playing catch with his dad on a Mississippi farm. A tall, thin old man waving a scorecard from the corner of his dugout. That's baseball. And so is big, fat guy with a bulbous nose running out one of his 714 home runs.

There's a man in Mobile who remebers that Honus Wagner hit a triple in Pittsburgh (then) 46 years ago. That's baseball. So is the scout reporting that a sixteen year old pitcher in Cheyenne is a coming Walter Johnson. Baseball is a spirited race of man against man, reflex against reflex. A game of inches. Every skill is measured. Every heroic, every failing is seen and cheered or booed. And then it becomes a statistic.

In baseball democracy shines its' clearest. The only race that matters is the race to the bag. The creed is the rulebook. Color merely something to distinguish one team's uniform from another.

Baseball is a rookie. His experience no bigger than the lump in his throat as he begins fullfillment of his dream. It's a veteran too, a tired old man of 35 hoping that those aching muscles can pull him through another sweltering August. Nicknames are baseball, names like Zeke and Pie and Kiki and Home Run and Cracker and Dizzy and Dazzy.

Baseball is the cool, clear eyes of Rogers Hornsby. The flashing spikes of Ty Cobb and an over aged pixie named Rabbit Maranville.

Baseball is just a game, as simple as a ball and bat, yet as complex as the American spirit it symbolizes. A sport, a business and sometimes almost even a religion.

Why the fairy tale of Willie Mays making a brilliant World Series catch. And then dashing off to play stick ball in the street with his pals. That's baseball. So is the husky voice of a doomed Lou Gehrig saying "I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."

Baseball is cigar smoke, hot roasted peanuts, The Sporting News, ladies day, "Down in front", Take Me Out to the Ballgame and the Star Spangled Banner.

Baseball is a tongue-tied kid from Georgia growing up to be an announcer and praising the Lord for showing him the way to Cooperstown. This is a game for America. Still a game for America, this baseball!"

I stop by to see my 93 year old Dad everyday after work and we watch the news and talk baseball. Here in the south you grow up playing football and both Dad and I did that into college. We seldom talk about the game other than a score or what is on TV. Even now in December he talks about baseball trades, awards and other "Hot Stove" items including Ryan Braun.

Baseball has its' flaws but it is still the best thing going. Very few players are crippled for life when they leave the game. Very few baseball players wind up beating their wives or physically hurting others away from the game. Not perfect but still ok with me!

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

and female body building

Dont forget womans beach volleyball!!!!!!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

...then admitted guilt. The system worked in his case.

His admission is somewhat controversial. The backstory is that he wanted back into the bigtime, and went public with a boatload of accusations that only worked if he admitted to doping himself. He had served his suspension, admitted to doping to back up accusations against a team that wouldn't hire him and a race promoter who wouldn't allow him to enter, and wasn't signed by anyone for the next season. Not the smartest move.

And they think baseball can get political.

Cycling also has an odd culture of forgivness for those who admit doping without incriminating others or appealing. The Pro ranks are full of guys who admitted doping took a year or two off and came back.

I ran across a reference to The Cardinals and Browns using some performance enhancer prior to 1945. Just a passing reference, but still interesting.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

His admission is somewhat controversial. The backstory is that he wanted back into the bigtime, and went public with a boatload of accusations that only worked if he admitted to doping himself. He had served his suspension, admitted to doping to back up accusations against a team that wouldn't hire him and a race promoter who wouldn't allow him to enter, and wasn't signed by anyone for the next season. Not the smartest move.

And they think baseball can get political.

Cycling also has an odd culture of forgivness for those who admit doping without incriminating others or appealing. The Pro ranks are full of guys who admitted doping took a year or two off and came back.

I ran across a reference to The Cardinals and Browns using some performance enhancer prior to 1945. Just a passing reference, but still interesting.

Steve B

Yes, he continued to scheme and lie. I completely understand the cycling culture, training at one time with 'much better than average' triathletes who were very much in to discussing these things. In a sport that has credibility issues, Landis was/is considered one of the least credible.