Opinions on a Pie Traynor autograph and much more

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

This actual signed photo was shown to me today (not a scan, the actual photo) and I was asked to give my opinion on its authenticity.
What do you guys think?

Honestly, the only thing throwing me off is the T in Traynor. I haven't studied his first name that much, but the Pie looks good and the end r in Traynor looks typical, FWIW. The T looks a little "deliberate" to me and you don't see many of his T's signed like this, but then again if he's signing his full name he could make the T a little more fancy. His T's were usually bland like so:

[GrayGhost]

My vintage HOF and star ball I had a few months ago. had a Traynor EXACTLY like the index card. That one in the picture looks "too fancy" and I too don't like the T

[Shoeless Moe]

Anyone know the story?

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Anyone know the story?

There's different stories of how it was obtained, but all of them seem to lead back to his childhood.

[RichardSimon]

Ok,,, now for the full story.
The picture was shown to me today by a dealer.
He had bought it with the PSA COA that is illustrated here, cert #K77090.
The dealer sold it to a collector.
The collector who bought it sent it to JSA who turned it down.
I was asked for my opinion by the dealer who sold it.
This is a forgery, done many years ago by the infamous Ron Dross.
Dross was the first real forger in the baseball hobby.
The infamous B&W HOF plak scam (he got away with about $100K) was his doing but most people who are aware of that scam do not know that he also forged and sold a number of 8x10 B&W photos along with the plaks.
I saw most of the plaks and a few of the photos when they first hit the market and a few well known dealers were trying to sell these items.
Karma is a bitch though. Dross is no longer with us and passed away at a young age.

[GrayGhost]

Wow. Another strike against the Alpha Bits pros

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Karma is a bitch though. Dross is no longer with us and passed away at a young age.

Did Dross forge any other players and when did he really start putting forgeries out on the market?

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Did Dross forge any other players and when did he really start putting forgeries out on the market?

I read somewhere that Dross did a lot of Mantle's also.. Do you think those ones you originally passed and have since changed your mind about on eBay are works of Dross?

[earlywynnfan]

OK, what am I missing? This guy is talented enough to do the "Pie" part and the "raynor" part nearly perfectly. Yet, instead of getting it right on the only part I could actually forge, a generic capital T, he makes it distinguishable to anyone who knows Traynor's sig??

Is this ignorance or arrogance?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[mr2686]

Traynor had more than one type of T. The T in the forgery was like he signed his name early on until, I think, the 40's.

[RichardSimon]

Traynor did have more than one type of T.
No the photos of Mantle were not done by Dross.
Dross has been dead for some time.
Dross started out forging autograph cuts only.
This was approximately 20 years ago.
He forged mostly HOFers as far as I know.
Before I knew that he was a forger he actually bought some blank B&W plaks from me at a JFK airport show.
All of a sudden rumors were sweeping the hobby, this was about 17-18 yrs ago, that a big find had been made of B&W HOF plaks.
Many names were involved. The cards themselves were pure mint.
Dross got some dealer to be his front man, I forget who that was, and he sold many of the plaks to several dealers. The front man claimed he had collected these himself and now decided to sell them. This frontman left the hobby not long after this scam went down. One dealer in particular bought $80K worth and sight unseen, knowing what he was getting I ordered a number of them from that dealer. As soon as I got them though I realized they were fake and got out of my deal. There were many better names in the group of forgeries. I believe I still have photocopies of the forgeries and I will look for them tomorrow so I can list them here. One of the things to look out for is pure mint B&W Artvue HOF plaks. Many of these cards were shown to me afterwards at shows and many collectors did receive refunds when I told them they were not authentic.
The clever Mr Dross had been visiting Cooperstown and stumbled upon a store that had connections to the HOF. After the HOF switched to gold plaks they sold their remaining stock of B&W plaks to this store. All the plaks were shrink wrapped and stayed mint until the store owner put them out on his selling floor. One of the ironies of this scam was that none of the living HOFers at the time were part of this scam. The reason for that being that individuals who visited the store were buying up the living HOFers to mail to them for autographs.
Thus here was a huge group of HOF plaks but no DiMaggio, no Hubbell, etc. By the time Dross got to the store he could not buy any players who were still alive then because the store had sold out of those.
Some of these plaks are still in the hobby I would think.
I will try to find my photocopies and produce a list here tomorrow.

[packs]

I am curious as to whether this photograph was submitted for authentication by an auction house.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

No the photos of Mantle were not done by Dross.

Do you think you know who did those Mantles? I've got to believe Mick's signature is the most forged in the hobby. There is sooooo many fake Mantles out there.