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[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Johnson would have certainly been Kennedy's running-mate in '64--for the same reason he was in 1960. (And for the same reason Kennedy went to Texas in November '63.) The Vice President would be just about sure to get the nomination over the Attorney General.

I don't think so.

[David Atkatz]

Well, we'll never know.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Well, we'll never know.

Good place to leave it.

As for who was behind it, I vote for the Mob. With Bobby seriously trying to put them out of business (Valachi was singing), JFK eliminating their Cuban gambling by agreeing never to invade, JFK screwing Giancana's mistress (AFTER Sam brought in Illinois for him), Marcella and Traficante everywhere you turn in the story, the CIA-Mafia plot to kill Castro, etc., etc. Then you have the amazing coincidence that Oswald's assassin, Jack Ruby, just happened to be a lifelong mob guy. To me, Ruby's involvement is the key that unlocks the whole thing. I also cannot look at the head shot and believe for a second that shot didn't come from the Grassy Knoll. I don't care what anybody says, my eyes tell me all I need to know about that. I believe the Mob actually succeeded in rubbing out a president and getting away with it. Incredible.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Good place to leave it.

As for who was behind it, I vote for the Mob. With Bobby seriously trying to put them out of business (Valachi was singing), JFK eliminating their Cuban gambling by agreeing never to invade, JFK screwing Giancana's mistress (AFTER Sam brought in Illinois for him), Marcella and Traficante everywhere you turn in the story, the CIA-Mafia plot to kill Castro, etc., etc. Then you have the amazing coincidence that Oswald's assassin, Jack Ruby, just happened to be a lifelong mob guy. To me, Ruby's involvement is the key that unlocks the whole thing. I also cannot look at the head shot and believe for a second that shot didn't come from the Grassy Knoll. I don't care what anybody says, my eyes tell me all I need to know about that. I believe the Mob actually succeeded in rubbing out a president and getting away with it. Incredible.

Watching and re-watching the film, I just don't understand why no one pushed him down after the first contact shot. Everyone sure got down after the final one. You would think it would be standard protocol: someone shoots the big guy, everyone nearby knows to shove him down in case more is on the way.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Good place to leave it.

I also cannot look at the head shot and believe for a second that shot didn't come from the Grassy Knoll. I don't care what anybody says, my eyes tell me all I need to know about that. I believe the Mob actually succeeded in rubbing out a president and getting away with it. Incredible.

You are absolutely right. There is no question in my mind, either, that the head shot came from the front. It is so blatantly evident in the films from that day. Also, if you read many of the witnesses' testimony given the FBI or directly to the Warren Commission, a large number of people in Dealey Plaza said they heard shots coming from the front as well as behind. Of course, the Warren Commission just dismissed them all as being mistaken. Many, many people described hearing either 3 or 4 shots with 2 of them coming almost instantaneously. Since the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle requires a minimum of a second or two to chamber a round, re-aim, etc., this meant that it couldn't be a single person shooting. The Warren Commission just dismissed them all as being mistaken. Governor Connally said without reservation that he and Kennedy were hit by separate bullets. This would effectively eliminate the 'magic bullet theory.' He was sure of this point. But, again, he was deemed to be mistaken by the geniuses on the Warren Commission.

Sure, sure. WC apologists simply state that eyewitness testimony is so unreliable. I get that. But every single one of these people is wrong? Give me a break.

This stuff drives me absolutely insane!!!!!!!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

You are absolutely right. There is no question in my mind, either, that the head shot came from the front. It is so blatantly evident in the films from that day. Also, if you read many of the witnesses' testimony given the FBI or directly to the Warren Commission, a large number of people in Dealey Plaza said they heard shots coming from the front as well as behind. Of course, the Warren Commission just dismissed them all as being mistaken. Many, many people described hearing either 3 or 4 shots with 2 of them coming almost instantaneously. Since the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle requires a minimum of a second or two to chamber a round, re-aim, etc., this meant that it couldn't be a single person shooting. The Warren Commission just dismissed them all as being mistaken. Governor Connally said without reservation that he and Kennedy were hit by separate bullets. This would effectively eliminate the 'magic bullet theory.' He was sure of this point. But, again, he was deemed to be mistaken by the geniuses on the Warren Commission.

Sure, sure. WC apologists simply state that eyewitness testimony is so unreliable. I get that. But every single one of these people is wrong? Give me a break.

This stuff drives me absolutely insane!!!!!!!

It is maddening to me, also. Just the spray of bone and brain matter that comes flying off his head at the moment the bullet slams directly into the SIDE of his head looks to me to go either straight up (because it has no place else to go) or behind him. Can't they do Newton's Law on that and figure out where the bullet came from? I know, the limo was also moving--at a blazing 11 miles and hour. I guess the driver never got the memo that if you hear what could possibly be a gun shot, floor that 500CC pedal. This guy actually puts on the brakes at one point during the fusillade, and it's only on the third shot that he gets the Lincoln going. I'm not nearly as interested in the forensics of the case than in who was behind it, but it's all endlessly fascinating to me. Just one of the countless amazing pieces of trivia--it was the most photographed murder in history.

[ocjack]

In 1994, I attended a business conference just outside of Dallas. One afternoon we had some free time so an associate and I decided to drive into Dallas to see the Book Depository and Dealy Plaza. The first thing that strikes you is that it's a relatively small, conpact area. It always seemed so much larger in film footage and news coverage.

The Depository had been turned into a museum. You had to walk through a set of metal detectors to get into the building (yeah, better late than never). The upper floor was re-created to show what the corner looked like in 1963. And the remainder of the floor had video and historical documents. It was an outstanding view down to the street where the motorcade passed.

Afterwards we walked over to the grassy knoll and overpass. I didn't realize it at first, but I was actually looking around on the ground for I don't know what - maybe a bullet casing or some other evidence. I knew it was absurd to think I'd find something, but that's how my memories of that day in 1963 affected me. I was subconsciously trying to solve the mystery.

Historians say we want to believe in a major conspiracy because we refuse to believe someone so inconsequential could have changed the course of history. Sadly, we will probably never really know for sure.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ocjack

Sadly, we will probably never really know for sure.

After all these years, I'm beginning to think you're right. But to me, there are only two possibilities: Either you believe the million-to-one possibility that Jack Ruby, who never did anything in his life but work for the Mob, and about whom nobody ever produced a single shred of evidence of the slightest interest in national affairs or of any affection whatsoever for the Kennedys, was so moved to silence the only person who could explain why the assassination happened, or you believe that Jack Ruby was ordered to assassinate Oswald to keep him from spilling the beans on a conspiracy. If the latter is true, who would have been in a position to force Ruby to do that, who did he take orders from? And did that person or organization have the motivation to put out such an order? The Mob had so many different reasons to kill JFK, the answer would be simple if he was a more ordinary person. And they kill people all the time, that's what they do, and they're very good at it. But to try to kill a president? That's what people can't get their heads around. But they were desperate in 1963, fighting for their existence at that point, and as Carlos Marcello explained to an undercover FBI informant when asked why they just didn't eliminate Bobby: "If you cut off the tail of a snake, it can still bite you. But if you cut off the head, it's dead." So they had the means, the motivation, and somehow came up with the opportunity. I firmly believe this, they pulled off the Mob Hit Of All Time. Keep showing me all the evidence of what a lone nutjob Oswald was, and I'll keep reminding you that that's the poster boy for someone they could pick up to involve in the assassination, then arrange for him to get caught and take the blame for it. Oswald was never supposed to live out the day of November 22, but he did, so they had to take the desperate chance of having Ruby stalk him all weekend in the police station until he could create the opportunity to silence him once and for all. There is some fascinating film footage of Ruby, not long before he died in 1966, basically confessing to being part of a much larger effort.