Colossal Auctions?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The difference is that 99 - 100% of Morales' stuff is bad. No one in their right mind (on this board) would buy a piece that he's authenticated.

What you presented represents a tiny fraction of what PSA and Spence have authenticated. Most would estimate that they are right 95% of the time (give or take a few percentage points). Granted that 5% potential error rate represents a large number of items. And I am sure you are all over this 5% segment, as you have an apparent "axe to grind".

But to answer your question, the outrage you're seeking doesn't occur- because the vast majority of PSA/Spence authentications are correct. There is a massive difference between 5% (PSA/Spence) and 100% (Morales).

Nobody is above reproach... Spence's Firpo authentication is awful. No argument there. But for you to compare the two outfits in the same breath is preposterous. Best of luck with this interesting mission

I am not comparing the two in the same breath, i am just pointing out the hypocrisy. Should I not have shown the Firpo? Is showing the Firpo an axe to grind and nothing else? Maybe they should be RESPONSIBLE for their authentications. Novel idea I know.


You admit that no one here will buy a morales piece, so morales isnt that big of a problem, is he? You wouldnt have known about the firpo authentication if i hadnt shown it, and if you thought it was a cool autograph, might have even bought it based on spences opinion. THAT'S the problem.

People buy all the time with a spence loa trusting it is good because it is signed off by spence. If no morales piece is ever good in your mind, you will never buy one. Morales can never harm you.

What I am trying to say is that people are buying COA's, not autographs, and if what spence is doing to boxing is the best he can do, then in my opinion we are all in trouble, because people are buying his coa's by the peck and bushel, and Morales doesn't have anything to do with that.

Everytime there is criticism of spence, people bring up morales, and they keep saying "well, at least he isn't THIS guy." That's the fools argument that is brought up every time spence is put on the hot seat to explain and be responsible for his authentications. Morales is put out there to get him off the hook again.

I noticed another member say that jsa and psa are the closest thing we have to reputable authenticators. Notice he didnt say they were reputable authenticators, he said "closest thing we have to reputable". Even he didnt believe they were reputable. That's a problem. Shouldn't we have an authentication outfit that is reputable, not "the closest thing we have to reputable?" it's their opinion when they make an opinion on authenticity, it's not their fact. you can believe them or not, or you can believe me or not. it's up to people to decide whether what i say holds water in my opinion, or what they do and say holds water.

Everyone has an opinion as to whether psa or jsa is reputable. but if someone brings up an opinion that questions their authentications, all of the sudden it is "Morales" just like "THIRD BASE" on the abbot and costello baseball routine.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Maybe they should be RESPONSIBLE for their authentications. Novel idea I know.

How would you suggest an authenticator take responsibility for this or any other mistake when it's discovered after-the-fact? I'm not meaning that to be an attack, but a genuine question. Of course, ideally the mistake would be caught in-house before the LOA was printed up in the first place. Failing that, if the person paying for the authentication discovered the mistake, I suppose they could get their money back (though I'm sure most would just keep the LOA and pass it on down the line). But when a mistake is discovered two or three links down the chain of custody, what can an authenticator do at that point?

I'm thinking in particular of a situation Richard Simon posted about recently in which an item was brought to his attention that he had previously passed, but now revised his opinion on. Much to his credit, he contacted the current owner and encouraged them to go back up the chain and get his money back from whoever he bought it from, but the current owner declined to do so. In a situation like that, I'm not sure what else the authenticator could do to "be responsible." He can't break into the guy's house and destroy the fraudulent item, he can't force the guy to tear up the LOA, he can't even force the current owner to disclose the identity of the next buyer so that he can let them know the situation. It seems like once the LOA goes back with the item, the authenticator's hands are tied unless the owner notices the mistake (in which case, why is he having it authenticated in the first place).

Again, not an attack on anybody, authenticator or otherwise. Also, this question is presented with the understanding that mistakes do happen, so answers like "they shouldn't ever make mistakes in the first place" aren't particularly helpful.

[travrosty]

being responsible means owning up to the mistake (never saw them ever do that yet), then put procedures in place to tighten up that area of authentication they are having problems with (never saw them do that with boxing either). then refund money whenever and wherever possible.

The problem is that it is not just an occasional mistake that exasperates me. We can all make mistakes. But it is the level of mistake that is made.

That firpo mistake could NEVER, EVER be made by anybody i know that i consider to really know boxing. Can't be done. Impossible, not possible.

So what is going on? That's the question. The question is, show the exemplar you used to prove it was a mistake. Because if you don't have an exemplar that looks anything like the bogus Firpo autograph, then the question becomes, "How did you authenticate it without an exemplar. i cant answer that and I am not accusing him of not using exemplars, but I really would like to see that funky firpo exemplar he must have used if people hold him to his word that he uses exemplars. that's all.

If you type in the firpo cert number, it STILL COMES UP AS A VALID FIRPO AUTOGRAPH.

That is not taking responsibility. it should read "Luis Firpo- cert cancelled, call customer service.

THAT is taking responsibility.

We showed the george chuvalo that was called a julio cesar chavez by psa a long time ago, and it STILL shows up in their database as a George Chuvalo.

Some companies databases show bad Joe Louis' that stgill show up as Joe Louis, the bad Muhammad Ali's show up as Ali, the bad Max Schmeling, Marciano, etc. list goes on and on and on and on and on.

WHy? Why? Why? Why? Why?

[travrosty]

They can admit it, they can say they were wrong, they can cancel the cert in their database. they can refund money for the authentication, they can refund money for the bad item. It's whoever gets stuck with it last that is out the money. Write a check if it was your opinion that gave the buyer confidence to buy it only to find out it is not real. They cash checks, try writing one out.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

They can admit it, they can say they were wrong, they can cancel the cert in their database. they can refund money for the authentication, they can refund money for the bad item. It's whoever gets stuck with it last that is out the money. Write a check if it was your opinion that gave the buyer confidence to buy it only to find out it is not real. They cash checks, try writing one out.

It would be great if these top authenticators would do this. They think they above reproach, but they are wrong. If the whack jobs that are ANL are interested in a fix, they ought to go back to their rising son Christopher Moral Less and get him to fix his exemplar files too, don't you think.....or is he just a scammer himself? Agree whole heartedly that JSA and PSA should do better at correcting their horrendous mistakes. I have stated in the past, if they don't get better, they will go the way of The GAI Global Bird. They’re almost there, but Moral Ass has jumped the shark so far he is above repair.

What makes me laugh like hell, is when industry giants like Muellar & Koschall say that "they have never seen Morales work” to judge if he is a walking boob or not? Or “good for Chris”, like he’s magical Chris Kringel or something. They are sticking up for a guy who has rarely got an autograph right. He has never had Mickey Mantle correct. I bet dollars to donunts more people are looking to buy Mantle than Gropo the robot or whoever that boxing guy is?

I have an idea....how about checking it out and knowing your industry completely as you state you do (Muellar & Koschal), instead of being skirt boys and skirting the issue? Or they love to use the same line Fryingpangiani used to use..."someone stole my certs or they are fake certs". LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The whole industry is a laughing joke and will continue to be so until guys like Moral Less is in jail or at least done with his rubber stamping everything fake as genuine. Maybe he should admit his mistakes? JSA & PSA need to tighten up their business model too or they will falter and go out of business, but there is little comparison to the 2 issues. Both are bad. When ANL and their wack job band of 3 get on board they might actually have some credibility, until then not so much

[Scott Garner]

Several autographs from the Colossal Auction have started to appear on eBay. One seller has two or three supposed Satchel Paige cuts and a Ty Cobb. How can you provide a quick link to an auction? I don't know how to do it, otherwise I would have provided it for those that care to look...

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Several autographs from the Colossal Auction have started to appear on eBay. One seller has two or three supposed Satchel Paige cuts and a Ty Cobb. How can you provide a quick link to an auction? I don't know how to do it, otherwise I would have provided it for those that care to look...

You mean this one, Scott:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ty-Cobb-Sign...item2c6094f609

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[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Several autographs from the Colossal Auction have started to appear on eBay. One seller has two or three supposed Satchel Paige cuts and a Ty Cobb. How can you provide a quick link to an auction? I don't know how to do it, otherwise I would have provided it for those that care to look...

And this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Satchel-Paig...item2c60954828

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[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

It would be great if these top authenticators would do this. They think they above reproach, but they are wrong. If the whack jobs that are ANL are interested in a fix, they ought to go back to their rising son Christopher Moral Less and get him to fix his exemplar files too, don't you think.....or is he just a scammer himself? Agree whole heartedly that JSA and PSA should do better at correcting their horrendous mistakes. I have stated in the past, if they don't get better, they will go the way of The GAI Global Bird. They’re almost there, but Moral Ass has jumped the shark so far he is above repair.

What makes me laugh like hell, is when industry giants like Muellar & Koschall say that "they have never seen Morales work” to judge if he is a walking boob or not? Or “good for Chris”, like he’s magical Chris Kringel or something. They are sticking up for a guy who has rarely got an autograph right. He has never had Mickey Mantle correct. I bet dollars to donunts more people are looking to buy Mantle than Gropo the robot or whoever that boxing guy is?

I have an idea....how about checking it out and knowing your industry completely as you state you do (Muellar & Koschal), instead of being skirt boys and skirting the issue? Or they love to use the same line Fryingpangiani used to use..."someone stole my certs or they are fake certs". LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The whole industry is a laughing joke and will continue to be so until guys like Moral Less is in jail or at least done with his rubber stamping everything fake as genuine. Maybe he should admit his mistakes? JSA & PSA need to tighten up their business model too or they will falter and go out of business, but there is little comparison to the 2 issues. Both are bad. When ANL and their wack job band of 3 get on board they might actually have some credibility, until then not so much

One of the dumbest things i have ever heard.

It's not gropo the robot, it's luis firpo. you are practicing elitism.

Put the exact quotes where people defend morales. show me. Don't just talk in generalities.

you are right, there is little comparison to the two issues. what the huge comapnies are doing will drag down the hobby. Morales is a known quantity.
How many Morales autos do you own, how many psa or jsa? answer it.

'Tighten it up'. Really? That's all they need to do, tighten it up a bit?

Tighten up the lug nuts? The wheel fell off 9 miles ago and we have been sparking on the rims since then gouging up the asphalt. But hey, they are doing great, right? Just tighten it up a bit. How about a total revamp from the top down?

You really don't know what's going on do you? You can't see past Morales. As long as there is Morales, other companies can't anything wrong? Where do I defend Morales? go ahead and show me.

Why are you turning my post above into a mueller and koschal discussion? it was my post about these companies and Morales, not theirs. All the sudden mueller and koschal come up. what's that have to do with anything? I don't speak on ANL's behalf, not here or when i post on ANL. It's a place to go and blog. There is no ANL view on things. It's a blog, just like there is no net54 view on things. I see you have posted on ANL. Are you a skirt boy too? Or do you have your own independent views and voice. Just like me, just like Mueller, just like Koschal, just like anybody. Show me a specific quote. You don't have one.

Did you see my other thread about a Tom Sayers boxing autograph with LOA's written up then pulled by these companies because I guess you need exemplars to issue an LOA?

10 dollar mantle photos are a problem but not the big fish. Why do you need judgments from other people on morales? Everybody knows Morales and his work. Morales is used as a smokescreen to take the heat off of other entities.

Criticism for abc, xyz companies. "MORALES"!!!! Total up all questionable items you have seen from morales and put a $ amount on them. then do the same with abc, xyz.
Compare the two numbers, not even close.

gropo the robot (elitism) had nearly a 400 dollar bid. It didn't have a morales cert.

[travrosty]

Maybe fudd would actually like to read autographalert instead of just bashing it.

http://www.autographalert.com/2007-1-6.html

looks like to me he takes a certain fde to task. About 80 percent down the page, titled 'following the authenticators".

how is that being a skirt boy, not commenting on this fde as you put it, when he clearly did.

apology accepted.

[steve B]

Leaving the other points aside, this point

Originally Posted by travrosty

Did you see my other thread about a Tom Sayers boxing autograph with LOA's written up then pulled by these companies because I guess you need exemplars to issue an LOA?

Is unfairly made. The comments you refer to were made well before the thread about the Sayers was started.


I was also somewhat amused by the link. The article about the churchill "rubber stamp" pictures a metal and wood typography block. NO rubber involved. (And no correction/addendum since 2007! That says a lot about attention the to detail of a whole lot of people)

If they're going to - and it appears rightly so in many cases- take people to task for issuing LOAs while making very basic errors........You know, the whole glass houses thing.

Steve B

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If you type in the firpo cert number, it STILL COMES UP AS A VALID FIRPO AUTOGRAPH.

Have you or someone you know contacted JSA about this mistake and shown them the exemplars you posted here?

Again, not trying to question whether you're right. I'm just wondering what their response, if any, was.

The suggestion that the cert be invalidated on the website certainly sounds like a reasonable suggestion if the signature can be shown to be a forgery. As far as writing checks though, I would assume they have some fine print limiting their indemnity to the fees charged for the service, not the value of the item itself. If that is the case though, who would they make the check out to? The person who submitted the item originally, or the one who has it now? Is there a policy/process in place with any of the major groups for rectifying mistakes? (whether it actually works or not)

Here's a suggestion: What if there were a sort of "bounty" in place for authenticated items that were proven to be faulty? Something like 1) show us the proof that the sig is not authentic 2) send in the cert card, loa or whatever 3) the authenticator either sends back the cert/letter with their own proof (copy of exemplars, etc) or cancels out the cert and sends back a check for the original authentication fees (regardless of whether the current owner was the one who submitted it or not)

Any other ideas?

I really don't think that "refund the money for the bad item" would ever really be a possibility unless the value of the item was less than the cert fees. If it were, someone would pick up the aforementioned Firpo auto, flip it to a friend for $1million, then claim a refund on the $1million. Even if they're backed by cert insurance or something, the insurance company's lawyers would never allow a loophole like that.