Baseball Hall of Fame Golden Era vote set for Dec. 5 ...

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wouldn't vote for any of them, but if I had to vote for one, it would be Hodges. Santo is more likely to get in though.

Santo came oh-so close too many times, that he probably gets in. Not sure if I would vote for him either.

[KenBoyerCollector]

Obviously, you can tell who I want in I'm not sure if he does though, but it would be nice for the Captain to make it!

If he did, I would be there at Cooperstown. I live in Syracuse -- only an hour and half away from Cooperstown I was just there two weeks ago for my annual pilgrimage

[Runscott]

I would combine Tony Oliva and Gil Hodges into one player, and put that guy in.

There needs to be a "Hall of Really Good"

[David W]

I've wondered about Minnie Minoso also, but I'm not sure the stats are there even if he had made the majors earlier than age 25 in 1951 (most likely due to his race). Even giving him 500 more hits only gets him to around 2500.

He's Vada Pinson, with less stats.

[Boomer]

Santo and Boyer are equals. If one gets in the other should as well

[novakjr]

I'm not against any of the candidates getting in, if that means anything.. But honestly, if I had to choose whether or not to back these guys, Hodges and Santo are really the only two that I feel would be worth any sort of effort...

[vintagehofrookies]

I am all for Minnie getting in!

[btcarfagno]

Off the top of my head I can think of six third baseman that I would put ahead of Santo (A-Rod doesn't count). Frank Baker, Ed Mathews, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Chipper Jones and George Brett.

That puts Santo ahead of the following Hall of Fame third basemen:

Wade Boggs
Jimmy Collins
George Kell
Fred Lindstrom
Pie Traynor

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Also...

How in heck Dick Allen isn't even being considered is an absolute travesty. Allen was a better hitter than 75% of the non-pitchers in the Hall currently. He was a malcontent, he moved from team to team, and he was nothing much in the field. But offensively the guy is easily the best player not in the Hall, and he was better than most Hall of Famers with the bat.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

Santo came oh-so close too many times, that he probably gets in. Not sure if I would vote for him either.

If he couldn't get in in the first 35 +- years of his eligibility, I would say he is not deserving. As I recall he had almost no support when he was eligible by the conventional route. My test for a HOFer is like the Supreme Ct. test for obscenity, you know one when you see one.

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If he couldn't get in in the first 35 +- years of his eligibility, I would say he is not deserving. As I recall he had almost no support when he was eligible by the conventional route. My test for a HOFer is like the Supreme Ct. test for obscenity, you know one when you see one.

Santo most definitely belongs in the HOF. Don't blame the player, blame the inept and biased baseball writers who did not vote for him. Santo was a better player than most of the third basemen already in the HOF.

[CubsFanCurt]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

Santo most definitely belongs in the HOF. Don't blame the player, blame the inept and biased baseball writers who did not vote for him. Santo was a better player than most of the third basemen already in the HOF.

Ain't that the truth! If he's in my dad and I are going to the induction

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If he couldn't get in in the first 35 +- years of his eligibility, I would say he is not deserving. As I recall he had almost no support when he was eligible by the conventional route. My test for a HOFer is like the Supreme Ct. test for obscenity, you know one when you see one.

Also, he fails the 'baseball card' rule. As a kid during the Santo era, while his card was desirable, it was no Ernie Banks or Fergie Jenkins. More like a Ken Holtzman. Same for Oliva and Kaat. Hodges was a Mets manager card, so that was a disaster

[Anthony S.]

I always check a player's career road splits to get a better idea of what they really accomplished. It's a low tech, convenient way of balancing out home field hitting advantages (Coors field, especially pre-humidors being an extreme example) due to short porches, clever groundskeepers, prevailing winds, etc. These are Santo's career road numbers:

4375 PA, 171 2B, 126 HR, 588 RBI, .257 BA, .406 SLG, .747 OPS

Compare that to Ron Cey's - for whom nobody is demanding hall of Fame consideration - road splits:

4135 PA, 184 2B, 150 HR, 556 RBI, .261 BA, .445 SLG, .797 OPS


Incidentally, Santo's lifetime fielding percentage was .954. Cey's was .961

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I always check a players career road splits to get a better idea of what they really accomplished. It's a low tech, convenient way of balancing out home field hitting advantages (Coors field, especially pre-humidors being an extreme example) due to short porches, clever groundskeepers, prevailing winds, etc. These are Santo's career road numbers:

4375 PA, 171 2B, 126 HR, 588 RBI, .257 BA, .406 SLG, .747 OPS

Compare that to Ron Cey's - for whom nobody is demanding hall of Fame consideration - road splits:

4135 PA, 184 2B, 150 HR, 556 RBI, .261 BA, .445 SLG, .797 OPS


Incidentally, Santo's lifetime fielding percentage was .954. Cey's was .961

Very interesting comparing those stats. IMO, Hodges is overdue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1980 bbwaa ( 3.9%)
1985 bbwaa (13.4%)
1986 bbwaa (15.1%)
1987 bbwaa (18.9%)
1988 bbwaa (25.3%)
1989 bbwaa (16.8%)
1990 bbwaa (21.6%)
1991 bbwaa (26.2%)
1992 bbwaa (31.6%)
1993 bbwaa (36.6%)
1994 bbwaa (32.9%)
1995 bbwaa (30.2%)
1996 bbwaa (37.0%)
1997 bbwaa (39.3%)
1998 bbwaa (43.1%)

15 tries and never above 43 percent. What happened in 1981 through 1984 btw? Enough is enough, I say.

[Chris-Counts]

"Don't blame the player, blame the inept and biased baseball writers who did not vote for him. Santo was a better player than most of the third basemen already in the HOF ..."

Big Ben, that's music to my ears. There are by far fewer third basemen in Cooperstown than any other position. That's not because there aren't any great third basemen — instead, it's because most casual baseball fans — as well as the baseball writers who vote — don't know what a great third basemen looks like. When you take into consideration Santo's glove, batting eye, power and the fact that he played during an era when pitchers dominated (unlike Pie Traynor, for instance), he's a slam dunk for the Hall of Fame. But unfortunately, the misguided voters think they are the gatekeepers of an exclusive club of superhuman ballplayers ("Max, did you ever play the game?"). They also seem blissfully ignorant of arguably the most important aspect of comparative statistical analysis: that all eras are not created equal. It's as if they believe Hack Wilson (a genuine stretch of a Hall of Famer, by the way) would have knocked in 191 runs in 1968. I doubt few even know what OPS stands for. I've corresponded with several voters over the years and I've yet to find one who can prove, simply by comparing the numbers, why Minoso or Santo is undeserving. Instead, they simply repeat outdated cliches ("he didn't play long enough," "he didn't hit enough home runs") that simply prove they are not students of baseball history ...

http://minnieminoso.blogspot.com

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I always check a player's career road splits to get a better idea of what they really accomplished. It's a low tech, convenient way of balancing out home field hitting advantages (Coors field, especially pre-humidors being an extreme example) due to short porches, clever groundskeepers, prevailing winds, etc. These are Santo's career road numbers:

4375 PA, 171 2B, 126 HR, 588 RBI, .257 BA, .406 SLG, .747 OPS

Compare that to Ron Cey's - for whom nobody is demanding hall of Fame consideration - road splits:

4135 PA, 184 2B, 150 HR, 556 RBI, .261 BA, .445 SLG, .797 OPS


Incidentally, Santo's lifetime fielding percentage was .954. Cey's was .961

Ron Cey was certainly a better than average player and is very often overlooked for just how good he really was. His career OPS+ (which takes home park, era played in, etc into account) was 121. That is quite a bit above average. Santo's career OPS+ was 125. That's even better. What's more, Santo had FAR mo range in the field than did Cey, as can be seen by chances per inning.

Also, don't forget that Santo was just 34 when he retired, and he played his entire career with diabetis. I've been on the Santo For The Hall crusade for years.

Tom C

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Boy do the writers love pitchers or what! Maybe they should elect players by position to even things up.

Well, pitchers do make up 40% or more of every roster, so it stands to reason there would be a lot of them in the HOF

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Also, don't forget that Santo was just 34 when he retired, and he played his entire career with diabetis.

IMHO, neither of these items bears any relevance to whether Santo was a HOF'er. IMHO, he's a HOF'er but his early retirement and diabetes are a non-factor.

Other than Santo, I don't think any of the 8 players deserves to be in. I won't scream if Ken Boyer makes it but the rest definitely don't belong.

Tabe

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Well, pitchers do make up 40% or more of every roster, so it stands to reason there would be a lot of them in the HOF


IMHO, neither of these items bears any relevance to whether Santo was a HOF'er. IMHO, he's a HOF'er but his early retirement and diabetes are a non-factor.

Other than Santo, I don't think any of the 8 players deserves to be in. I won't scream if Ken Boyer makes it but the rest definitely don't belong.

Tabe

For those to whom "counting" stats are important, Santo's early retirement should be taken into consideration. He did not have a chance to pad his stats. Most likely would have reached 400 homers. The diabetis is more a feel good interesting side note.

During the 1960's only Aaron and Frank Robinson had more RBI I belive...there may have been one other but he was right up there.

Tom C