Authenticity question

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Please explain exactly what you mean.

When I'm trying to decide whether or not to buy something, I look at the item first. If it doesn't look right, all the LOA's or COA's in the world aren't going to get me to buy it. I'm not knocking people for taking the backward approach, but I think it's why there are so many forgeries on the market (autographs, game-used stuff, etc.). The forgers know what stock we put in COA's and LOA's - even if 'we' (not me) know an item is likely fake, we know we can sell it because of its associated documentation, so we'll pay for it.

As I've mentioned previously, I had a major auction house take a semi-pro cap of mine and sell it as an authentic Cleveland Indians hat, and I had another offer to sell an unauthenticated football helmet as an authentic Notre Dame one. Both items would have had the LOA's that you all covet so much. Same for trimmed and altered vintage cards with the coveted encapsulation of major grading companies. And we all know about Barry Halper's collection.

All I'm saying is - use your eyeballs first. This ball might be fine, but I wouldn't make that determination based on a LOA or COA.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Runscott

When I'm trying to decide whether or not to buy something, I look at the item first. If it doesn't look right, all the LOA's or COA's in the world aren't going to get me to buy it. I'm not knocking people for taking the backward approach, but I think it's why there are so many forgeries on the market (autographs, game-used stuff, etc.). The forgers know what stock we put in COA's and LOA's - even if 'we' (not me) know an item is likely fake, we know we can sell it because of its associated documentation, so we'll pay for it.

As I've mentioned previously, I had a major auction house take a semi-pro cap of mine and sell it as an authentic Cleveland Indians hat, and I had another offer to sell an unauthenticated football helmet as an authentic Notre Dame one. Both items would have had the LOA's that you all covet so much. Same for trimmed and altered vintage cards with the coveted encapsulation of major grading companies. And we all know about Barry Halper's collection.

All I'm saying is - use your eyeballs first. This ball might be fine, but I wouldn't make that determination based on a LOA or COA.

I knew what you meant, I just wanted you to explain it in detail. When did anyone here state otherwise?

I have never made a decision on a autograph based on a COA; that would be sloppy of me or anyone else to do that. Even if a authentic Mickey Mantle signed bat was accompanied with a COA from Scoreboard, I would know one thing for sure; it didn't come from Scoreboard, even if the Mantle was authentic.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I knew what you meant, I just wanted you to explain it in detail. When did anyone here state otherwise?

I have never made a decision on a autograph based on a COA; that would be sloppy of me or anyone else to do that. Even if a authentic Mickey Mantle signed bat was accompanied with a COA from Scoreboard, I would know one thing for sure; it didn't come from Scoreboard, even if the Mantle was authentic.

Please explain exactly what you mean.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Please explain exactly what you mean.

Scott,
In post 9 Chris reported very demonstratively that Mantle never signed bats for Scoreboard. If that is true then any Scoreboard COA for a bat signed by Mantle has to be fake.
If you ask why someone would do this, well, perhaps someone has a real signed Mantle bat but can't sell it for as much as they think they should. They could try to add a fake Scoreboard COA and increase the final sale price.
That's how I took it.
Mark

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Scott,
In post 9 Chris reported very demonstratively that Mantle never signed bats for Scoreboard. If that is true then any Scoreboard COA for a bat signed by Mantle has to be fake.
If you ask why someone would do this, well, perhaps someone has a real signed Mantle bat but can't sell it for as much as they think they should. They could try to add a fake Scoreboard COA and increase the final sale price.
That's how I took it.
Mark

Mark, it was rhetorical. I completely understand this thread and I think I explained myself perfectly in my first post; however, I thought there was a small chance that his question was based on a genuine failure to understand my post, so I responded honestly and thoroughly.

This isn't my ball, I don't bid on such things, and I have no skin in this game. My posts aren't going to affect the purchasing behavior of those of you who are into such things, so I'll respectfully visit other threads.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Mark, it was rhetorical.

Scott,
Sorry, my bad. Didn't get the rhetorical part.
Mark

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Please explain exactly what you mean.

In other words, if someone was selling a Mantle signed bat with a COA from Scoreboard, and even if the autograph was authentic, the bat didn't come from Scoreboard.

Also, I have never seen an autograph with a COA from Morales that is authentic, but just because the COA was issued from Morales I'm not going to assume it is a forgery. I will always examine the autograph first and foremost, because you never know, Morales might get lucky and get one right.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

In other words, if someone was selling a Mantle signed bat with a COA from Scoreboard, and even if the autograph was authentic, the bat didn't come from Scoreboard.

Also, I have never seen an autograph with a COA from Morales that is authentic, but just because the COA was issued from Morales I'm not going to assume it is a forgery. I will always examine the autograph first and foremost, because you never know, Morales might get lucky and get one right.

I don't think it's so much that Morales might get lucky and get one right. It's more like someone else got it wrong by sending him a real signed item.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I don't think it's so much that Morales might get lucky and get one right. It's more like someone else got it wrong by sending him a real signed item.

Good point, imagine that happening.

No one really knows if Morales physically examines autographs. My vote is "no."

[thetruthisoutthere]

This COA has always cracked me up. The Mantle is an obvious forgery, but read the COA:

"YMC reserves the right to only recognize an "Opinion" rendered by a Board Certified, Court Qualified, Forensic Document Examiner, with a substantial, verifiable, and Court recognized exemplar file."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...item4ab043c88a

djp-1.jpg

djp-2.jpg

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

In other words, if someone was selling a Mantle signed bat with a COA from Scoreboard, and even if the autograph was authentic, the bat didn't come from Scoreboard.

Also, I have never seen an autograph with a COA from Morales that is authentic, but just because the COA was issued from Morales I'm not going to assume it is a forgery. I will always examine the autograph first and foremost, because you never know, Morales might get lucky and get one right.

Christopher, Thanks but I was quoting a previous response to one of my posts - I guess I needed to telegraph my intent.

Originally asked in the very first post: "I wanted to know if it looks ok to people who have more expertise in this."

The conversation took a turn from 'LOOKING' at the signatures, to evaluating the legitimacy of the paper documentation. I think that's a backwards way of doing things. I might have missed something, but after Barry and I posted the first two responses, I don't think anyone else ever said anything about the actual signatures. On the other hand, there were several who have much more experience than me in evaluating signatures, who chose instead to evaluate the paper. Curious.

[drc]

The classic forged Scoreboard COA was for a Babe Ruth autographed "signed in the presence" of SB staff. Someone posted a photo of it on this board once.

The problem for SB is their real COAs were these cheap pre-printed paper certificates, not hand signed, serial numbered or anything. Very simple to copy. In recent years Goldin has attached holograms to the signed items, either his or the players', so it's a different verification story. I've even seen the MLB hologram on some of his offerings. Though I believe he still uses those generic cheap COAs.

I've seen Goldin hologramed items later given LOAs by PSA, JSA and Mike Gutierrez, and he really did represent folks like Ripken Jr, Barry Bonds and Shaquille O'Neal-- for what that's worth.

And, no, I own no Goldin or SB items. Just observations for an observer.

But, yes, about the cheapest, easiest to copy COAs ever.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Christopher, Thanks but I was quoting a previous response to one of my posts - I guess I needed to telegraph my intent.

Originally asked in the very first post: "I wanted to know if it looks ok to people who have more expertise in this."

The conversation took a turn from 'LOOKING' at the signatures, to evaluating the legitimacy of the paper documentation. I think that's a backwards way of doing things. I might have missed something, but after Barry and I posted the first two responses, I don't think anyone else ever said anything about the actual signatures. On the other hand, there were several who have much more experience than me in evaluating signatures, who chose instead to evaluate the paper. Curious.

To the original poster.... I think the sigs are legit. Just my opinion.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

In other words, if someone was selling a Mantle signed bat with a COA from Scoreboard, and even if the autograph was authentic, the bat didn't come from Scoreboard.

Also, I have never seen an autograph with a COA from Morales that is authentic, but just because the COA was issued from Morales I'm not going to assume it is a forgery. I will always examine the autograph first and foremost, because you never know, Morales might get lucky and get one right.

...or Moral less might peel off stickers of "ABC, XYZ" companies and affix his own beautiful shiney gold hologram for purposes of a sting operation to show how corrupt ABC, XYZ is? which I don't doubt they are. Knowing full well he has NEVER authenticated an Authentic Mickey Mantle...Despite problems with ABC & XYZ, Moral Ass continues to be the largest Festering Boil on the autograph industry to date in this lowly mantle collectors opinion.