Sir shill is at it again

[JustinD]

Well personally, I don't see any corelation to Topps T206 or Tristar. I don't think even the biggest of morons would think those were a vintage issue as they have modern players placed in a vintage look on glossy stock and are not individually doctored to look old. Plus, even on a legal front, I would bet those names were legally used and the vintage player's estates properly licenced. Most importantly, I can pick up each of those issues and flip them over to find a date. There is no attempt made to deceive. While I might not want a Justin Verlander T206, I know no one is going to drop 300 on it as a vintage piece. What Helmar is doing here is manufacturing unmarked vintage pieces meant to deceive the eye, it's not close to the same thing. Like I have said, if these pieces are not meant to deceive than properly date them all, then I have no problem at all. I don't think the millions or so Fritsch reprints fooled anyone. They looked new on new stock and are marked. The reprints say reprint, and the fantasies have dates. I just want Helmar to mark their crap. I noticed on the "Helmar Cigars" (now they are a tobacco company) issues he put out had a small 2010 on the back. Can't complain about that, if he did it once why not all the time?

[steve B]

I'd be surprised if Topps was paying anything to Burdicks estate or anyone else for using the T206 designation, which should still be under copyright. The Scott stamp catalog publishers have gone after small time catalog publishers for using their numbering system. (Their licensing fee is very small)

Personally I've never really understood the licensing of images of public figures. Ruth can't benefit anymore from his right of publicity, and if I find an unpublished photo of him I should be able to reproduce and sell it.
And prints of an original artwork should be allowed as well - even if they're card sized. But it's out there and probably cheaper for Topps to license than fight.

It does look like he's changing them to make them less likely to be mistaken for vintage cards. The ones that look like crackerjacks have a date on the back, and the more recent Goudeyish ones have a multi color back with what looks like a date in the copyright circle. Small, but bigger than the copyright date on any new product.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1fc0661a

I really don't know what to say about someone spending 2-300 on something they don't know anything about, other than that it's not something I'd do. Especially these days when it's really easy to find information about something.

Steve B

PS- Has anyone seen the new disclaimer on the Topps wrappers?

[sirraffles]

My name is Charles Mandel, I own Helmar Brewing and make the cards that you are discussing. Wow, I didn't realize that I was causing such a fuss. How best to respond? I must admit that the insinuations in this thread did get a bit under my skin.

I can tell you that I've been collecting since I was ten years old, which is now more than forty years ago. Time does fly. I attended every show that I could find when the hobby began to grow in the 1970's and eventually I traveled to shows all around the country. It was an exciting hobby back then. There was a real sense of comradery and excitement. At every show, no matter how small, there was something new to see. It hasn't been like that in a long time now, but anyone that experienced it will never forget it. I try to bring a little of that thrill back through the cards that we make. We strive to delight collectors with something that they've never seen before...something that perhaps just should have been made but never was.

In the nineties my collection was stolen and I thought that was the end of my collecting days. Not only could I not afford to buy back copies of cards that I once owned, but the thought of paying perhaps $500 for something that I once cherished and purchased for $2 really stuck in my craw. Happily, I eventually returned to my collecting roots when a master brewer and I formulated and marketed Big League Brew. I paid handsomely for licensing from the Ruth and other estates, by the way. Far from being an off-the-shelf recipe, it took us a couple years to get the product to taste the way we wanted it to. We distributed it in five states. And yes, I was proud when we eventually won that Gold Medal at the World Festival of Beer. It is actually a well respected competition that attracts submissions from all over. If you consider Miller, Bud et al real beer companies you'll be happy to know that they participate. I've turned down opportunities to resume distribution over the last couple of years because I have something in mind regarding that beer and others. But I digress.

Let me skip forward to the cards. There are no tricks, no subterfuge. I paint some myself and work with a couple great, great artists to make the best cards that we can. A lot of thought and effort goes into these. I'm humbled that there are collectors out there that enjoy them as much as I do, and humbled that they are willing to pay generous prices in order to acquire them. The market sets the price, by the way, and that is a great way to do it.

I see a lot of the posts have to do with the possibility that at some time in the distant future some crook might try to sell the cards as being older than they are, perhaps as some variation of the original Goudey set or something along those lines. Hmmm. Most of the common players in our R319-Helmar series already sell for more than the common players in the original Goudey set in similar condition. A crook is far more likely to try to sell a reprint as genuine and we don't make reprints. Besides, a crook from the future could take any item, any item at all, in your own home and misrepresent it.

Oh, there was someone that wondered how many returns that we get. Only once has someone sent a card back, about a year ago. Ironically, he had paid only about $15 for it--around a third of what the card has sold for more recently.

Among the grumblings I read there is one thing that did set me back, the complaint that Helmar items are listed on eBay in the Pre WWII category. It didn't occur to me that this was a problem for some collectors. I had, in fact, checked with eBay prior to listing the items there. They said that it wasn't a problem and in fact one can find hundreds, if not thousands, of modern cards of old players listed there. My thought is that collectors looking for players from that era would more likely look there than anywhere else. And, of course, virtually all the cards we make are of early players.

I don't check this board very often, you can reach me through my email...or at eBay! Best, Charles

[scgaynor]

I am going to buck the trend here and say that I think these have more of a chance of being collectible in the future, and probably have more investment potential than pretty much any modern piece made by Topps, UD, or whatever.

They seem to be pretty interesting, and if each is actually one of a kind and produced in small quantities, they are pieces of art. I can see people buying these in the future similar to how people buy Perez-Steele original art now. A card that is really interesting and has a great image may bring a huge premium in the future, but they have to cross the plane of novelty into art.

Scott

[Bridwell]

I think Charles did a great job explaining about his company. I met Charles in the 1970's and have followed the progress of his company. It's very impressive and the collectibles are well done. I've bought a few.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Among the grumblings I read there is one thing that did set me back, the complaint that Helmar items are listed on eBay in the Pre WWII category. It didn't occur to me that this was a problem for some collectors. I had, in fact, checked with eBay prior to listing the items there. They said that it wasn't a problem and in fact one can find hundreds, if not thousands, of modern cards of old players listed there. My thought is that collectors looking for players from that era would more likely look there than anywhere else. And, of course, virtually all the cards we make are of early players.

I don't check this board very often, you can reach me through my email...or at eBay! Best, Charles

Yes, in the Pre WWII category without a date on the cards. Why no dates? Certainly it makes more sense for you to put these in Pre WWII, since they look very old and feature players who played back then, but there needs to be some indication on the card that they are not actually from that period.

And, just because ebay allows something, doesn't mean it's not deceptive - in fact, ebay is all for anything that will get higher prices for an item, deception often working in their favor.

[ramram]

After seeing this thread a few days ago, I actually bid on a Helmar card (I was runner up). I think they are unique artwork and very well done. I have a problem with the reproduction/fake vintage cards that are produced without any markings but in this case, if anybody in their right mind Googles "Helmar" before they buy, I think they'll figure it out. If not, and they end up getting a Helmar card, they might be suprised of it's value in the future...IMO.

Rob M.

[steve B]

The newer ones do have dates. I posted a link to one earlier.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, in the Pre WWII category without a date on the cards. Why no dates? Certainly it makes more sense for you to put these in Pre WWII, since they look very old and feature players who played back then, but there needs to be some indication on the card that they are not actually from that period.

And, just because ebay allows something, doesn't mean it's not deceptive - in fact, ebay is all for anything that will get higher prices for an item, deception often working in their favor.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

The newer ones do have dates. I posted a link to one earlier.

Steve B

Okay, thanks. You've got much better vision than me.

[caramelcard]

This new stuff should be placed in the right category so those that are searching for old cards don't have to look at it.

Anyone try typing in Zeenut lately on ebay? Gimme a break.