just another auction (verkman)

[Exhibitman]

I have no idea of the circumstances of Larry's situation and I definitely appreciate how awful it is to lose a deal at the last minute. That said, it does appear that Verkman's auction rules allow for the kind of late bidding that took place. And if the item was tough and a bargain why is it so hard to believe that someone came in and topped the opener?

As for allegations of shilling by Clean Sweep, I've purchased numerous items in Clean Sweep auctions using max bids without my max bid being hit and haven't suspected any shilling on my wins or losses. Also, remember we have collectors across multiple time zones. A 12:30 a.m. EST bid is only 9:30 for me, 6:30 for the Hawaiian collectors on this board, so a very late bid isn't by any means improbable.

[sflayank]

no problem with late bidding
so anyone can put in minimum bids on the 10 cheapest lots and then bid on anything they want all night(GOOD SYSTEM)
but u dont have to bid before 10 if you bid on 10 lots or more
so this person puts more than 10 lots in his watch and decides to only bid on exactly 10 of them before 10 oclock and he'll leave the rest of them alone until after 130 so he can pay the 5% penalty for being late
and he sits at his computer refreshing the auction for 3 1/2 hrs to make sure it doesnt close before he can bid for the 1st time on those lots
the lot wasnt anything special...verkman offered it to me for 800 at the national...starts it at 500,which was too much, in his auction

[thecatspajamas]

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. You laid out exactly how someone could exploit the auction-ending procedure, and yet can't believe that someone could possibly have done what you describe?

A 5% bump in price is not that bad, when you consider that most bid increments are 10%. Save yourself one back-and-forth with another interested bidder who, like you, assumes that everyone goes to bed at 1:30 EST, and you've more than recouped that.

I agree that ending procedure is a bit more convoluted than necessary, but frankly, you just have to get used to each auction house having their own take on auction ending procedures. If you don't like the way the auction ends, don't bid in the auction, or at the very least write an e-mail to the people running the auction detailing how you think it could be improved. Have you actually tried to contact Steve or anyone else at Clean Sweep about this?

[bobbyw8469]

I won lots from Verkman last night. While I don't like how it ends, it is actually one of the preferred places I like the bid at.....

[chaddurbin]

if you're the only bidder...shouldn't you have won it outright before the extended bidding? i thought that was standard with all auction houses...

[Lordstan]

I'm not a big auction house bidder, but from all the threads that I have read, I have to say, that outside of shill bidding accusations, it seems most of the complaints come from those who lost items. I don't remember seeing a lot of posts from those who won items, but feel they paid more because of a shill.

To me the answer is simple. If you don't like the rules of an auction don't bid. If no one bids, no one will consign to that house and the other auction houses whose rules are more acceptable to the whole will be successfull.
It appears that the addiction we all share trumps all. On one thread, you hear complaints then it seems the same person later on will post what they won in a subsequent auction from the same house. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone does this, but it sure does seem that a whole lot of the group complain about auctions and then equal numbers post their winnings.) If they have great items, people will bid regardless of the rules.

Another interesting point I see, is how people bid. I think if everyone bid the most they are willing to pay right away, there would be no need for anger at the rules. It appears that all auction houses have some form of proxy bidding set up. If you're willing to pay $1000 for something then proxy bid $1000. If someone wins for $1100, even if it is a snipe, you can't be too upset, because you weren't willing to pay that for it. If you don't trust the auction house with your proxy bid then you either need to stay up until it closes or, perhaps more appropriately, you shouldn't give them your business.

Just my 2c.
Mark Velarde

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I'm not a big auction house bidder, but from all the threads that I have read, I have to say, that outside of shill bidding accusations, it seems most of the complaints come from those who lost items. I don't remember seeing a lot of posts from those who won items, but feel they paid more because of a shill.

We used to get complaints about that end of it as well. I can personally say that I've won auctions from almost every major auction house where my max bid was MUCH higher than what I won the item for. So if they were going to screw someone, they all could have gotten me at one time or another.

[drc]

In the way old days you typed in your bid in the Mastro Auctions. I once accidentally added an extra zero to my bid near the end. Ala 15,000 instead of 1,500. Happily there were no additional bids.

[perezfan]

Seems just a bit fishy (and unlikely) to me as well...

Now, if the item in question re-appears in a future Clean Sweep Auction, it would be cause for further suspicion/concern. Given the circumstances (and the fact that Verkman wouldn't budge off of the $800 price at the National) it would be great to hear from Steve on this matter as well.

That said, I have always had pleasant dealings with Clean Sweep, both as a bidder and consignor

Mark Steinberg

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. You laid out exactly how someone could exploit the auction-ending procedure, and yet can't believe that someone could possibly have done what you describe?

A 5% bump in price is not that bad, when you consider that most bid increments are 10%. Save yourself one back-and-forth with another interested bidder who, like you, assumes that everyone goes to bed at 1:30 EST, and you've more than recouped that.

I agree that ending procedure is a bit more convoluted than necessary, but frankly, you just have to get used to each auction house having their own take on auction ending procedures. If you don't like the way the auction ends, don't bid in the auction, or at the very least write an e-mail to the people running the auction detailing how you think it could be improved. Have you actually tried to contact Steve or anyone else at Clean Sweep about this?

Lance:

The 5% bump was NOT a bid increment, the bidder had to pay an EXTRA 5% bidder premium to bid on the lot AFTER 1:30 AM.

[ramram]

I agree that it can be frustrating but, if I'm bidding on several other items and I've got some cash burning a hole in my pocket, and a couple of those bids get topped beyond what I will pay, then I'm looking back through the auction lots to see what's undervalued and of interest to me. Nice to know that you can still bid on them at that point. Also, if I'm the consigner, I like the idea that someone can still bid on it at that point (mute point in this case though since Verkman owns the lot).

Rob M.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have bid on CSA Auctions from time to time, including last night, and never had any thoughts of foul play.

[sflayank]

no thoughts of foul play
i have nothing against verkman
i couldnt care less that i lost the lot
but why would ANYONE deliberately pay 5% more than they have to
he could have bid at 1:29 instead of 1:40
did this person say to himself i really like steve im gonna give him extra money for this item
whats even more scary is that anyone could find more than 10 lots to bid on in csauctions

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by sflayank

no thoughts of foul play
i have nothing against verkman
i couldnt care less that i lost the lot

Then I'm confused by the title of your post "just another crooked auction."

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Lance:

The 5% bump was NOT a bid increment, the bidder had to pay an EXTRA 5% bidder premium to bid on the lot AFTER 1:30 AM.

You're misunderstanding me. My point is that any time you raise the bid, the price is bumped typically by 10% increments. So if I'm watching an item someone else has bid on, I can either duke it out with them earlier in the evening when each punch costs an additional 10% and the chances of having to make multiple bids are higher, or I can wait until late at night when I'm pretty sure the other guy has gone to sleep (since EVERYONE assumes nobody in their right mind would pay the extra 5% juice to bid after 1:30), and throw a single punch for a 15% bump (10% bid increment plus 5% extra juice).

Personally, I've not bid in any of their auctions, so this is all theoretical. But my point is that you can't jump to the conclusion that the auction house is crooked just because a scenario that doesn't fit YOUR bidding strategy played out. Believe me, whatever system of rules are in place, there will be bidders looking to work that system to their advantage any way they can.

Lance

[glchen]

I think the point Larry is trying to make is that the new bid was at 1:40am and not 1:29am. That is TOO close to 1:29am. If you were going to do the strategy that Lance is suggesting, you would put your bid at 2:25am (just before the 10% extra bidder premium takes effect), and not 1:40am, which is only 10 minutes after the first bump. There's a too good chance bidders might still be around and check another 10 minutes after the bump, which is why this looks suspicious. Of course, Lance could be suggesting that some bidders could prefer 15% bid increments to 10%, which I guess is possible.

BTW, I have won from Clean Sweep before, and I am not making any judgment here on whether they shill or not. I have no idea, and they had a couple of lots last night that I was very interested in bidding on if only I had the funds.

[gnaz01]

I placed a bid at around 5PM and was surprised I won my lot when I woke up this morning. I even placed a 2 bid higher MAX, but I got it for what I put my initial bid in and no one bid it up

Very pleased!!

[thecatspajamas]

All I'm really suggesting is that for every way that an auction house chooses to end an auction, there are 100 different strategies bidders may employ to win the items of their choice at the best possible price. I'm NOT suggesting that they all make sense.

Heck, for all I know the winning bidder works second shift, got home at 1:35, logged on and was surprised to see the auction still going and threw down a couple of late night bids. It happens (been there myself, just not with Clean Sweep).

My bigger point though is that, if you're going to call an individual and his auction house crooked and a liar and accuse him of shilling and rigging his auctions (all in the initial post), you need to have something better to back up your accusations than "somehow i was outbid when i awoke this morning." Complaining about losing out on an auction item is one thing. Making libelous statements about the auctioneer and his company is another.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the point Larry is trying to make is that the new bid was at 1:40am and not 1:29am. That is TOO close to 1:29am. If you were going to do the strategy that Lance is suggesting, you would put your bid at 2:25am (just before the 10% extra bidder premium takes effect), and not 1:40am, which is only 10 minutes after the first bump.

I used to do my bidding while drinking a bottle of wine. By the time 1:30 rolled around, I couldn't think straight - no telling what I would do. One night late in a Lipset auction I realized that every auction I wanted was too high. I had $3,000 and insisted on spending it - ended up buying a bunch of stuff I didn't need, and didn't even start bidding until the deadline.