O/T Best Starting pitcher of all time.

[GrayGhost]

Great so far. I was trying to avoid just "best single season" this time.

[kkkkandp]

I think this is a very tough call, but I'd pick The Big Train by a nose over Cy Young.

[bbcard1]

You know Rapid Robert Feller may not be the best of all time, but he certainly has a seat at the table. Lost peak seasons to the war and played in an era of monster hitters.

[chris6net]

I would vote for Tom Terrific! He carried the Mets for over a decade. This is a little off topic but my vote for best pitching coach would be Rube Walker. If you look at all the young pitchers he developed and their longetivity it is a testimony to him.
Seaver,Ryan,Koosman,Matlack,McGraw all say that Walker taught them how to pitch while using their legs rather than their arms as the point where they got their pitching velocity and had less stress on their pitching arms giving them the longevity not since much recently by hard throwers. CN

[packs]

Have to throw Randy Johnson into this discussion. Very overlooked and its unfortunate. In his prime, 1995-2002 Johnson went 143-44 with a 2.61 ERA with 2416 K's in 1763 IP. Mind you, this domination occurred in the midst of the steroid era and Johnson won 5 Cy Youngs, including a stretch of 4 in a row.

Unbelievable.

[FrankWakefield]

McClain had a good year in 1968, but the Tigers won many of those 31 games for him. Gibson was dominant, with minimal run support.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/black...ge=keri/080221
Gibson's 22 wins are obviously fewer than McLain's.. In his 9 losses the Cards scored 12 runs. He only gave up 27 runs in the 9 losses. Twice he lost by 1-0 scores, once by 2-0. He won 4 1-0 games. In 13 of his wins the Cards scored 3 runs or less.

Dad went to game 1 of the WS that year, you guys post much more about McLain and I'll dig out his game 1 ticket stub... even today, watching the old video of that game 1, Gibson looked like a man pitching to little leaguers. I recall who won the Series overall, I got to go to game 6 and had tears in my eyes as a kid during that long 2nd inning. '06 was vindication.

In reading Mr. Thomas' book about Walter Johnson, and as much of a Gibson fan as I am, I'm satisfied that Johnson's 1.14 ERA season would have been even better had Johnson not allowed some runs in a regular season game that was jokingly played at the end of the season.

Truth is that Johnson, Mathewson, Waddell, Young, Brown, and others were powerfull. Can't imagine standing in against Wood or Grove would have been much fun, either.

[brickyardkennedy]

Walter Johnson

[Dave1943]

I'd have to vote for 'The Big Train'

Respectfully,

Dave

[TexasLeaguer]

I voted for Cy Young... but I am tempted to say Babe Ruth, who is easily the best player ever.

[slidekellyslide]

It makes me sad that Grover Cleveland Alexander didn't even make the list.

373 wins
2.56 ERA
90 Career Shutouts
Three 30 win seasons in a row (1915-17)

[rdixon1208]

Greg Maddux.

[old13man]

Walter Johnson. He accomplished quite a bit without a decent lineup behind him for most of his career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

It makes me sad that Grover Cleveland Alexander didn't even make the list.

373 wins
2.56 ERA
90 Career Shutouts
Three 30 win seasons in a row (1915-17)

+1
His baseball reference numbers


Black Ink Pitching - 126 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 339 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 257 (9), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 77 (4), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[Peter_Spaeth]

Single seasons you have to mention Steve Carlton 1972 (27 wins for a last place team) and Pedro Martinez 2000 (1.74 ERA in an age where that is essentially impossible).

[pitchernut]

In their prime, I'd pick Randy the "Big Unit" Johnson.

[GrayGhost]

I figured by limiting it, ID leave off someone. Ol Pete could have been there for sure. Well, right now, The Train is in the lead. not too surprised.

[71buc]

I am old school about many things but this discussion isn't one of them. I would have to go with Ryan or Maddux as well. I discount the statistics of the first four on your list due to the fact they played under Jim Crow. I feel that way about all statistics pre 1947. How can you accurately measure greatness when access to the stage is limited? Can you imagine the dominance of Ryan, Randy Johnson, Maddux, Carlton, Seaver in a world where their didn't have to compete against the likes of Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente, and others who would not have been permitted to take the field during Mathewson's and Johnson's time?

I am pleasantly surprised that Clemens appears nowhere on this list. I would hope that Barry Bonds would also be dismissed from any discussion regarding the greatest hitters.

[prewarsports]

Walter Johnson hands down. The only pre-war pitcher even close would have been Lefty Grove had Baltimore not refused to sell him for about 5 years of his prime. If he averages 25 wins a year (which would have been easy for him) we would be talking about Grove with 400+ wins.

Modern era, Randy Johnson was absolutely dominant. I have never seen anything like the Big Unit personally. Completely underappreciated considering he was pitching against all the juicers!

[71buc]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Walter Johnson hands down. The only pre-war pitcher even close would have been Lefty Grove had Baltimore not refused to sell him for about 5 years of his prime. If he averages 25 wins a year (which would have been easy for him) we would be talking about Grove with 400+ wins.

Modern era, Randy Johnson was absolutely dominant. I have never seen anything like the Big Unit personally. Completely underappreciated considering he was pitching against all the juicers!

I live in the Northwest and sat near the Mariner bullpen during game 5 of the 1995 League Division Series. I'll never forget the electricity generated by Randy warming up and entering the game as Welcome to the Jungle blared. Wow it still gives me chills. Priceless....

[Touch'EmAll]

Sneaky underrated, not flashy, but boy, could sure get the job done - will eventually get his name on the "best of all time" list .... Greg Maddux.

Also underrated (if that is possible) - lost HUGE prime years to war ... Bob Feller.

Walter Johnson & Matty are epic great I know, but they did not have to "bring it" and bust a gut on every pitch like they have to do nowadays. The stats they compiled would still be awesome, just not to the stature you see on the stats page. Could you imagine a pitcher today laying off on a few pitches to save themselves for when they really neded it - they wouyld get busted up.

Babe Ruth beat Walter Johnson in 1915/16 on 5 consecutive decisions - yes you read that right - 5 consecutive decisions.

When "on' the best stuff was probably Ryan or Koufax.

[nsaddict]

Great variety of opinions, but so many variables come into play here. One poster mentioned not to include the first 4 as they played long ago. But notice no pitcher is dominating in the polls post 40s, "someone else" has the most votes divided between several. No doubt Koufax was totally dominant for 5 years and that was good enough to get him into the Hall but only dazzled for a short period. Cy Young's record of wins will never be closely challenged and the award is named after him. In my opinion he was a very good pitcher but not great. His career stats are more based on him being an incredible workhorse. My vote went to Johnson as I believe he is a cut above all others. Second in career wins for a team that struggled for many seasons,very low ERA and leader in career shutouts. Verlander should get the Walter Johnson award this year

[Touch'EmAll]

If I were starting a team and could choose any starting pitcher in their rookie year thru end of career....

Satchell Paige

[ktimm]

Regardless of era pitched in, Walter Johnson followed closely by Christy Mathewson.

[prewarsports]

Lets have a poll for the most overated pitcher of all time and I bet Sandy Koufax gets the same percentage of votes in that poll than the one we are participating in right now. He WAS Ron Guidry, their stats are basically identical but people would laugh at Guidry as the greatest of all time yet Koufax gets 10% of the vote? Just shows how much popularity plays into the equation. I know people will disagree BUT, the numbers dont lie, he and Guidry are eerily similar.

[Jcfowler6]

Three cool dudes.

[Writehooks]

If I had to give the ball to one guy, to win one game, I'd go off the board: Catfish Hunter.

[Kenny Cole]

I don't remember Guidry pitching 4 no-hitters, including a perfect game, winning the pitching triple crown three times, or winning 3 Cy Youngs when only one was awarded. Nor did he have a 0.95 ERA in the post season. Guidry was a very good pitcher, but he was a far cry from being anywhere close to as dominant as Koufax.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by Writehooks

If I had to give the ball to one guy, to win one game, I'd go off the board: Catfish Hunter.

Catfish was a great pitcher, but...

If my life depended on winning one game? Without hesitation, Pedro Martinez. Look at the era he pitched in, compare him to the rest of the league. It's not even close....

On a side note...

No disrespect to Nolan Ryan, but as good as he was at times, he was a .500 pitcher on .500 ball clubs. Did he really make his team better when he pitched?

[scmavl]

To paraphrase Smoky Joe Wood:

"Walter was the best of all time. He would've won a lot more games if he'd had a good club behind him."

[jcmtiger]

I already posted my 1 year pitchers, McLain and Gibson, Overall Walter Johnson. And to the other posts Maddux no way.

Joe

[oldjudge]

Also need to include Roger Clemens in the conversation. He has as many Cy Youngs as Cy has letters in his name.

[Shoeless Moe]

should get some love for his stats.

Averaged 30 wins a season for 11 years!!!! also averaging 44 complete games a year during that time frame!!! Average per year not total over 11 years, but 44 per year....insane!

[Brendan]

For me, it's Cy Young hands down. I want the guy who is going to win games, not the guy with the flashy strikeout, shutout and ERA. Young has many more wins than Johnson and a better winning percentage. A great pitcher needs to win games even on a bad team.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brendan

For me, it's Cy Young hands down. I want the guy who is going to win games, not the guy with the flashy strikeout, shutout and ERA. Young has many more wins than Johnson and a better winning percentage. A great pitcher needs to win games even on a bad team.

I disagree...a pitcher plays defense..he doesn't score runs. Nolan Ryan in 1987 led the league in ERA yet he still had 16 losses and only 8 wins. His team couldn't score runs...that's not Ryan's fault.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I disagree...a pitcher plays defense..he doesn't score runs. Nolan Ryan in 1987 led the league in ERA yet he still had 16 losses and only 8 wins. His team couldn't score runs...that's not Ryan's fault.

If your team doesn't score any runs, don't give up any runs. When you have a good lead, you're going to throw the ball over the plate. If you give up a couple runs, nobody cares. A great pitcher should be able to give up only one run if his team scores two. If his team scores ten, he can allow the other team to score a few. Please don't forget that pitchers did bat back then.

[sycks22]

To those that said CY Young, he struck out a guy every 3rd inning, gave up the most hits / most losses. He's the Favre of baseball, some nice records, but when you throw a complete game every time out there you're bound to get some records. Don't get me wrong 511 wins is amazing, but over 300 losses is pretty bad.

[martyogelvie]

I'm a sucker for stats so I picked Cy..

the best I ever saw would be Tom Terrific.. and having never seen the pre war guys its hard to get a feel for them vs simply looking at the stat line.

I love it when the subject of unbreakable records comes up and folks overlook CYs 511 wins.. I simply point out that a pitcher could win 20 games for 20 years in a row and still be 100 wins shy of CY.. that is the MOST unbreakable record IMO of any record in sports...

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by sycks22

To those that said CY Young, he struck out a guy every 3rd inning, gave up the most hits / most losses. He's the Favre of baseball, some nice records, but when you throw a complete game every time out there you're bound to get some records. Don't get me wrong 511 wins is amazing, but over 300 losses is pretty bad.

He had 511 wins. His winning percentage was actually very good. Compare his winning percentage to other greats and he's in the top bunch. The record he holds for the most losses gives him an impression that he had a low winning percentage. .618 is not low.

Giving up the most hits is just a novelty stat. Same thing with strikeouts. Because he pitched the most innings of any pitcher, he is going to have some of these records. If you want to go that route, he also has the record for games started, innings pitched, batters faced, complete games and earned runs. You can make an argument that ERA means something, but an out is an out whether it's a flyball at the wall or a strikeout. Also, three and a half strikeouts per game was not that low in those days.

Originally Posted by Cy2009

Another point about a closer, especially Rivera. For a team to win a game, the team must score more runs than the other team. It becomes far more difficult when the team is behind and has to come up with runs to come from behind to win the game. How many times has Rivera helped his team come from behind to win a game?

Don't undermine his RBI!

[Vintageclout]

I typically break these type of questions into 2 categories: (1) Peak Value and (2) Overall 10+ year career. My peak value choice is easily Sandy Koufax who from 1963 - 1966 was the benchmark that all pitchers will forever be measured against. He was virtually un-hittable. (Peak value honorable mention candidates include Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddox, Grover Alexander, Walter Johnson and Mathewson).

Over a 10+ year career it would have to be Walter Johnson who remarkably won 417 games with a 2nd division ball club. Honorable mention goes to Christy Mathewson and Tom Seaver with Seaver Bill James' choice as the arguable premier post WWII pitcher.

[iwantitiwinit]

Bob Gibson - What a hardass/competitor what a pitcher should be, he had the pitches, the mind, the determination and the "balls". If I had to pick one guy to pitch one game I think he might be my guy.

[howard38]

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[carrigansghost]

Eddie Feigner/ Rich Hoppe, faced both and Hoppe's pitches sounded high to me, but were called strikes.

Rawn

[TexasLeaguer]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

Eddie Feigner/ Rich Hoppe, faced both and Hoppe's pitches sounded high to me, but were called strikes.

Rawn

Lol! I watched my Dad's team play against them once in the mid-late 80's. It was a great show and Feigner was awesome.