How do you feel about the Topps Vault negatives?

[Big Red Machine]

The one thing about these that I will say is that it's not actually a negative but a positive. If it was a negative the image would be in reverse. I am curious to know if Topps still have the original negatives in their archives.

[Exhibitman]

The Topps negatives are transparencies. Transparencies were a big commercial medium in the pre-digital age until 35 mm slides more or less replaced them. Their main utility was the ability to drop them onto a light table and instantly see the true image, which is very useful for an art director or editor trying to select an image. Needless to say, it is an archaic technology. They are collected in other fields. Here is a Steve McQueen 4 x 5 transparency from a 1970s Academy Awards show:



As collectibles, I am not sure of the long-term viability. The ones I saw at the Topps booth at the National were showing some signs of degeneration. Film isn't that stable a medium. I have a few transparencies from the 1960s that are showing signs of degeneration. It also requires some careful storage in conditions that are not the same as cards for optimal lifespan.

[Mark70Z]

I'm with you; I really like the transparencies that were used to make the vintage Topps cards. I do enjoy looking at some of the other great, never before seen, shots of some of my favorite players of the day as well, but don't appeal quite as much as the one's used for cards. I do notice the negatives used for cards go for a bit more typically, but some of the others go for high dollar as well. I guess it depends on the shot and the player pictured.

By the way I "LOVE" the Billy Williams transparency you have purchased. If you don't mind me asking what was the final price of that baby?!? That has to be a great addition to your collection.

I personally think these will at least hold their value due to thier one of a kind nature. Of course as time goes by some of the younger collectors/individuals will forget, since they've never seen them play, the older players.

[steve B]

I like them, and pretty much any other preproduction stuff as well.

But like Exhibitman said the film is a tricky medium.
Nearly all Kodak film from mid 50's -1982-3 will eventually discolor. Typically the image turns red/pink. Some goes quicker, some slower but it all turns.
The exception for these might be any done in Kodachrome, which is dye based and doesn't show much fading. Some of the early 80's stuff also fades, but very slowly. Ektachrome shows image density loss beginning at around 20 years.
Other films have the same issues but are a bit more colorfast. Fuji gets a bit purplish, but fairly slowly.

And it's not just negatives and transparencies. It's all kodacolor from 50's -80's including prints. And many other print papers. (And some stuff was done in B+W on color stock and also turns)

True B+W should last a very long time depending on care and how well the original developing was done.

Steve B

[northsidebaseball]

I have a followup question concerning taking care of these for Exhibitman or Steve. What would you say are the best conditions for storing these things? Currently my 1961 Billy Williams is stored in the sealed plastic case that the topps vault sealed it in with the case inside a zip lock bag. I know nothing about photo film/negatives or their care. I will say the williams negative I have displays no flaws or degeneration that I can see and it is 50 years old. Perhaps the color has aged but I just assumed being a negative/positive it always looked as it does now. I did once see pictures of 8x10s another guy made from a topps vault negative/positive from the 60's and they looked great!

Also mark thank you for the kind words, I paid $300. The price of these things are all over the place so I'm not sure if it was a bargain or if I overpaid. In either case I will be hanging on to it for a long while, as you guessed it is definitely one of my favorite items. Now if I can just locate and purchase the 1961 Ron Santo rc negative.....

Anybody that has any of these in their collections, feel free to post them here. I would love to see some more!

[steve B]

If it's one of your favorite items then you haven't overpaid.
One of the guys I learned from told me "you rarely pay too much, just too soon". And taking a long view of collectibles I think he's right. (Of course, for some cards you might be a couple lifetimes early)
Plus there's only one of each one.


Storage of photographic stuff can be really complicated. There are some issues that aren't well understood, but research is catching up.
Essentially cool and dry is best.

Personally I'd make a small mat from some acid free paper to keep the emulsion from contacting the holder.
That being said, I have lots of old negatives that are still in the crummy boxes they were in when I bought them and they're doing fine. I've seen film collections in a lot of different states of storage and condition. Ranging from cool and dry that became junk to stuff in an attic that was beautiful.

The basics are here
http://www.pixmonix.com/tutorials/tu...lm-storage.php

With more details here
http://www.loc.gov/film/storage.html

If you follow the research link at the top of that last one it will take you to some technical papers. That's where most people hit the wall as far as interest goes. I find it fascinating. And the cellulose acetate plastic that's used is somewhat similar to cardboard, both beginning as wood pulp, so some of the science will loosely apply to cards as well.

Steve B

[northsidebaseball]

Originally Posted by steve B

If it's one of your favorite items then you haven't overpaid.
One of the guys I learned from told me "you rarely pay too much, just too soon". And taking a long view of collectibles I think he's right. (Of course, for some cards you might be a couple lifetimes early)
Plus there's only one of each one.


Storage of photographic stuff can be really complicated. There are some issues that aren't well understood, but research is catching up.
Essentially cool and dry is best.

Personally I'd make a small mat from some acid free paper to keep the emulsion from contacting the holder.
That being said, I have lots of old negatives that are still in the crummy boxes they were in when I bought them and they're doing fine. I've seen film collections in a lot of different states of storage and condition. Ranging from cool and dry that became junk to stuff in an attic that was beautiful.

The basics are here
http://www.pixmonix.com/tutorials/tu...lm-storage.php

With more details here
http://www.loc.gov/film/storage.html

If you follow the research link at the top of that last one it will take you to some technical papers. That's where most people hit the wall as far as interest goes. I find it fascinating. And the cellulose acetate plastic that's used is somewhat similar to cardboard, both beginning as wood pulp, so some of the science will loosely apply to cards as well.

Steve B

Thanks alot for the quick education in taking care of these Steve, much appreciated and very interesting threads. I already have it in much safer storage conditions than before. The Williams I bought also came with the original envelope that it was apparently stored in all these years by Topps. It is just a standard long white envelope cut in half inscribed in pencil: Billy Williams 1961 2nd series #141. So it certainly does not appear that Topps took any extraordinary efforts to preserve these. Thanks again for help