My impromptu chat with Joe O.

[TONY-III]

Originally Posted by kcohen

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

[TONY-III]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ok, so I tried to say something good about Joe O, who seems like a good guy. I think this thread is very indicative of what many folks who I frequently speak with say about this board. I sort of cringe when they say it but it's the truth. There is so much negativity it sometimes turns people off. If you are so disgusted with the hobby and that bitter about everything, why not just find another one? I, for one, would rather spread good will towards other collectors and try to see the positive, at least sometimes. It's not like all of our 3000'ish members are going to let bad things be done without pointing them out. And yeah, I get the fact everyone likes a train wreck. I admit I slow down to take a look too. And then there are the few people who would rather post positively on other boards and then come here to post their hatred, venom and vile. That really sucks....Just look up in this thread and you will see all of what I say.

Joe- if you are reading this, keep up the good work.

I have to admit that when my partners and I were discussing our marketing budget for our new company and we were looking into where to advertise, we all came to the conclusion that we really weren't thrilled about spending any of our advertising dollars on such a negative forum. In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything, but we reminded ourselves that there are many good people who don't speak up because they don't want to waste their time on negative crap. We watched the forum for some time and quickly realized that if you look past the few, you will see many real collectors with alot of knowledge, who appear to be friendly and want to share and help others. Thanks to all who have a positive impact on this forum! I for one appreciate the information I have gained by being a member.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

As much as I like PSA, not sure I agree with this. I've cracked open many a recent PSA slab, and it seems just as easy as the older slabs. SGC is slightly more difficult. Now, Beckett, on the other hand, that's an incredibly tough slab to open up. If any slab is tamper-proof, it's Beckett.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

Sorry to hear that. As a long time collector, I still prefer cards in the raw. of course, a lot of my collection is now slabbed because that's how they come nowadays. But when I decide that I really like a card and want to keep it, then I often break it out of the slab and put it on the stack of keepers.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I have to admit that when my partners and I were discussing our marketing budget for our new company and we were looking into where to advertise, we all came to the conclusion that we really weren't thrilled about spending any of our advertising dollars on such a negative forum. In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything, but we reminded ourselves that there are many good people who don't speak up because they don't want to waste their time on negative crap. We watched the forum for some time and quickly realized that if you look past the few, you will see many real collectors with alot of knowledge, who appear to be friendly and want to share and help others. Thanks to all who have a positive impact on this forum! I for one appreciate the information I have gained by being a member.

Tony, is this a serious post or are you just being satirical? I'm being earnest I just can't tell for sure. I'm thinking it's satirical and it's the funniest post of the year. Congrats!

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

I don't know Joe and respect Leon's judgment. But, I think Jeff's point is most telling. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would post on a board that engages in censorship. The price we pay in "negativity" is far outweighed, in my view, by the virtue of free expression.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Leon

Until you buy a 25k card, like I did, didn't notice a tiny bit of touched up color, and returned the card for a full refund after the graders caught it....then, grading doesn't suck so much.

Unless of course you are the seller...then it might suck. Just some random thoughts that I have experienced....and it was with a Boston Garter...

Well, who's fault is that? You paid 25k for an old piece of cardboard? You know better than that, Leon...don't you?

[alanu]

I'm glad I don't know any of the PSA or SGC people personally. I just send my cards in and hope for the best grades possible. I know what to expect from both companies and usually get great customer service from both.

[ullmandds]

I'm with Alan on this one...I have seen mistakes made by both psa and sgc...exponentially more by psa...but that is likely in part due to their much larger volume.

I recently crossed a card SGC graded A to PSA(my 1st experience with PSA at the national) and my card received a deserved 10...in this case PSA got it right.

My experience with PSA at the national was much more professional and organized than with SGC...who had a pretty small setup with 1 guy helping w/submissions and another in the background.

3rd party graders are what they are...and in this day and age are necessary for the good of the hobby.

I guess ultimately it's like going to another doctor for a second opinion. That's all it is...another "opinion"...just like grading!

And regarding PSA's dubious past behavior on many counts...the biggest fish in the pond tends to take liberties, break the rules, act unconscionably at times...all in the name of the all mighty dollar!

[Orioles1954]

I have nothing against PSA, but after receiving those (3) absolute garbage DeLong's in the mail that we're supposed to PSA 3, I have to wonder who they have grading there. Some blonde who goes to cosmetology school at night?

[Northviewcats]

I've only had two experiences with PSA, both were very positive. The grading seemed to my eye to be very consistent. I also enjoy the PSA Webpage and forums. I appreciate the SMR guide and Population reports. So, even though I've never met Joe, I admire his work.

As to the question of grading my thought is that cards should be graded to protect the card. You will never get perfection when you have a human being judging a card's attributes, but by putting a card in a holder you will preserve its condition (at least most of the time). I know you can preserve cards in plastic without spending the money to have it graded, but occasionally you will take the card out of the sleeve and risk damaging it, or you will damage it by pressing it between a pair of acrylic blocks. It really bothers me when I get a nice card in the mail that I know I will have to flip, and it just doesn't warrant the grading fees. You just know that the card is going to be passed around a couple of more times in a raw condition and soon will drop a grade or two through normal handling.

You can see how 100 years has really done a number on many of our treasures. I wonder what they will look like another hundred years from now if they are left in a naked state?

Just my two cents...

Best regards,

Joe

[freakhappy]

Good posts, Joe and Pete, I couldn't agree more...good points!

It is what it is...human grading! Either jump in or stay away, it's your prerogative.

[MikeGarcia]

Yes , I think I know her ; she's majoring in nail-polish chemistry and I'm sure she's the same grader who keeps returning my 1937 Wide Pens Goudey Premiums Canadian Type 5's as '' 1936 R314 '' ...... And then they try to tell me that three experienced sets of eyes have verified and signed off on every slab that leaves the building........ SGC has graders over age 29 I hope....

[Doug]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Good posts, Joe and Pete, I couldn't agree more...good points!

It is what it is...human grading! Either jump in or stay away, it's your prerogative.

As some great sage of card collecting once said, "Buy the card, not the holder"!

[TONY-III]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Tony, is this a serious post or are you just being satirical? I'm being earnest I just can't tell for sure. I'm thinking it's satirical and it's the funniest post of the year. Congrats!

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

[calvindog]

Still the funniest post of the year.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

[mr2686]

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Down goes Frazier...Down goes Frazier!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Leon, it was awful watching that arrest at the National and put me in such a crappy mood about the hobby. But somehow I managed to soldier on and despite my negative feelings about fraud in the hobby I still spent 11K on cards in the past ten days. I just want you to know that some of us Negative Nellies still have disposable income. And I read the shit out of those banner ads. I read them so much I think they're burned into my eyeballs. Carry on.

[TONY-III]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

Then I take back everything I said..... I love ya' man.....Thanks for advertising. Quite honestly I can't keep up with every one of ya'll but did get to meet many at the National. Truth be known I almost have a phobia with remembering names but am damn good remembering at faces .

I have an overwhelming desire to let folks hang themselves if they want to. That being said there will never be anonymity allowed when arguing with or berating others....

Something tells me we are actually in full agreement on just about everything. I too speak my mind and have put my foot in my mouth on occasion (see last post)......You have contributed but have only started 2 threads....which is actually more than most members probably have. Most folks don't want to get into the fray. Me, I jump in and ask questions later. You would think I would know better.

Jeff- I can't say I was joyous about the arrest at the National but I am of a different opinion. I am glad it happened and I think the guy should have been paraded around the room twice, with trumpeters trumpeting in front of him. I absolutely think that sort of thing can help act as a deterrent. I wish there were no fraud in the hobby but, to me, it's nice to know someone is watching. best regards

[botn]

...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

...

LOL....no doubt.....still trying to get my foot out of my mouth.....

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by hangman62

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Why do I feel like everyone's staring at me...

[vargha]

Interesting thread. My thoughts:

Empty suit.

Thin-skinned.

Weasel.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I first met Joe Orlando at the very first PSA Registry Luncheon approximately 10 years ago. I introduced myself and we had a very nice, cordial face-to-face discussion for approximately 10 minutes – very much like Leon’s experience at the 2011 National. In short, a terrific guy who cares about collectors and the well-being of the hobby!

Sadly, as a few board members know and as Leon alluded to in the first post of this thread, someone attempted to impersonate Mr. Orlando via e-mail several years ago. When this occurred, Leon was accommodating enough to show me the e-mail and I for one knew instantly it was a fake. How did I know? Anyone who has ever read any of Mr. Orlando’s articles or letters to the collecting community know that he always ends the message with, “Never Get Cheated”. This phrase was conspicuously absent from that e-mail therefore rendering it unquestionably bogus.

Once I came to the realization that someone or perhaps several people were impersonating Mr. Orlando, my mind began to race back over the years to all my other Joe Orlando encounters. One that immediately comes to mind was at the 2003 Atlantic City PSA Registry luncheon. Leading up to this event there had been ongoing controversial rumors that PSA was going to go to half-grades and this created a major uproar among many of the registry collectors like me who already owned thousands of PSA-graded cards. Although I was sitting in the far back of the registry luncheon and already had a few drinks, I recall someone getting up in front of the luncheon attendees who identified himself as Joe Orlando and seemed to have a striking resemblance to the person I met two years earlier. Anyway, this person stood up and made the unequivocal announcement, “Read my lips. PSA will never go to half grades!” This should have been the first tip-off that someone was impersonating Joe at public functions since as we all know now, PSA did go to half grades.

This also explains many other “enigmatic” incidences that have occurred since. There had been allegations that Joe ejected a collector from the 2009 registry luncheon in Cleveland for privately expressing his concerns that someone might be successfully getting doctored cards past the PSA graders. I thought this collector was just confused, and perhaps Joe was just exhorting him to leave to get back to the convention to buy more cards, but he seemed to think that this wasn’t the case and had a witness to substantiate that incident. Now it’s clear this alleged misunderstanding must have been with the Joe Orlando impersonator. There have been numerous other confusing things that happened during this time span, such as my banishment from the CU Boards and all of my sets being deleted from the PSA registry, but it wouldn’t be fair to Joe to bring up those types of incidents since I’m now relieved to know it wasn’t him after all.

Kudos to Leon for helping bust up this impersonation ring and putting everything back in its proper perspective.

[vargha]

Lmao!

[calvindog]

Last three posts: GOLD.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything...

Oh, please. This sounds like another one of those 'teams' consisting of 1 person. And, for the record, I only say positive things about everything, which is why my opinion is worthless.

Bill

[HRBAKER]

Bill,

Someone has to be a ray of sunshine. Good to see you in Chicago.

Jeff

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Oh, please. This sounds like another one of those 'teams' consisting of 1 person. And, for the record, I only say positive things about everything, which is why my opinion is worthless.

Bill

LOL. Yes, the executive decision on where to throw a few hundred dollars a month to advertise usually requires a full quorum before any decision can be made. These are weighty matters.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by hangman62

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Maybe if I start posting crazy stuff on the postwar side more people would check it out to see what's going on over there...

[FrankWakefield]

I think that Leon attempting a brief meeting, Mr. Orlando allowing it, and the way it went, all of that was a good thing to post.

I perceive that graded cards are a problem for the hobby, and we'd all be better off as hobbyists if grading had never appeared. Then some collectors would learn a bit more about what they're collecting. Now, some folks just collect slabs. Slabs were good for the sports card business, but not the hobby. I recognize that I'm in an infinitesimal minority with that perception, but then 'majority rule' doesn't mean 'majority right'. Still, from reading the first post, it seems that Mr. Orlando cares about the hobby, that's good.

As for who did more for the hobby, I think Mr. Burdick tops that list, with Mr. Lipset right up there. So I agree with those two posts that suggested that.

Mr. Carter was a nice, civil, kindhearted gentleman, who knew cards. There have been several collectors like that. Mr. Burdick and Mr. Lipset gathered knowledge and published it for all of us to use... that seems more significant and more important for the hobby.

These guys knew a bit about old ball cards, and they shared their knowledge so that we could better enjoy the hobby...

[hunterdutchess]

Hmmmmm, plastic surgery to look like Joe Orlando so I can get a bump on my graded cards?? I'm in : )

[Matthew H]

I agree with Frank 100%. I bet there are collectors that have never even touched their cards outside the plastic.

I like raw cards, I bust them out. It bothers me when I have to buy that card I want and It's graded a 5. I know I have to pay a premium for that plastic and that premium goes away when I take a butter knife to the side of it.

And yes... Iv'e had a few

[campyfan39]

I agree with Frank 100% also.
Grading has caused a spike in prices for cards. In the cases they demand higher than "book" prices. And raw/pure cards in great condition are more expensive too out of fear that the buyer might slab them and flip it.

i am sure it has benefits for high rollers and super high end cards like Leon referenced in this thread. However, in my opinion, the hobby would be better off without grading. Later today I plan on freeing a t205 Mattheson from its plastic prison

[Misunderestimated]

I think that for the most part PSA (and SGC and Beckett Grading) are "a necessary evil" and their leaders (like Joe Orlando) are well-intentioned. Joe has always impressed me as interested in the hobby's well-being. He obviously recognizes that the success of PSA is inextricably linked to that of the hobby. He is a good cheerleader (for want of a better word) for the hobby and works hard at it. My understanding is that he was an enthusiastic hobbiest before he came to PSA and that this enthusiasm drives him today.
That said, he works for PSA not the hobby and when the interests of the two are in conflict PSA pays his salary.
Ultimately my experiences are consistent with what Leon wrote at the beginning...

Perhaps PSA (and SGC/BGS) could offer tamper proof holders at a higher price point (presumably they would cost the grading companis more).... Or maybe these holders should simply be used whenever a card is valued over $1000 (or something) since PSA/SGC etc. charge more to grade them anyway.
---
if someone already suggested this I'm sorry for not giving credit I started to skim the thread around page 3....

[theseeker]

Joe Orlando always struck me as a glorified ID braclet, pinky ring, and white shoe wearing used car salesman. His company reflects that image I have off him. In no way good for the hobby, IMHO. And Joe Orlando is in it for himself. Evoking this ceaseless self-promoter in the same breath as the selfless Jefferson Burdick is just plain wrong, again IMHO.

And on this board as with any other, it's not negativity for negitivities sake, it's honest emotion on a hot button topic.

And you want a list of guys that are good for the hobby you can start with this board, where members freely share their knowledge and passion for the hobby. I've benefitted emensely from it. And Leon heads the list.

[glchen]

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed. Old time collectors know how to handle cards without damaging them. Newer collectors are worried that the card they bought instead of a big screen TV will depreciate to 0 value if their toddler gets a hold of it. It's always been a topic on how card collecting may be dying as a hobby because newer collectors aren't as interested in it. However, I firmly believe that TPG's like PSA do bring the newer collectors back into the hobby. They give collectors a comfort that they're not getting scammed or throwing their money away. And for PSA, even though their registry is often held in derision here, it allows more entertainment for some collectors to be able to see and organize all of their cards in the registry and compete with others on it. I've never talked or corresponded with Joe Orlando, but I believe he's trying to promote the interest of the hobby as best as he can. Obviously, he's not perfect, but very few of us are.

[teetwoohsix]

I haven't met Joe so no comment on the type of person he is from me, but as far as his company goes it would be nice if he put a little more oversight in the grading department. Seems to be way too many inconsistancies with the grades of cards.

I understand all TPG's view tons of cards and are bound to make mistakes, but I see a lot more coming from PSA than SGC or BVG. Just my opinion, that's all.

Sincerely, Clayton

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by glchen

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed.

I bolded the part that is such a big positive that grading provides.
And btw, all the things that people are saying here about cards have been said by old time collectors about comics.
The grading companies level the playing field and help to provide a comfort level that allows the less savy and knowledgeable collectors to feel confident that the card they are purchasing is what it is advertised as.
Im new to collecting vintage cards and without SGC and other grading companies I very seriously doubt I would buy a Mickey Mantle or other higher dollar card with my level of hobby knowledge at the moment. It was much the same way when I started collecting comics. As I learned and became much more savvy in the comics hobby I didnt need to rely on CGC nearly as much. One day I believe the same will happen as I learn more about cards. Are there drawbacks to pro graders? Sure, card prices for HG cards have increased (not because dealers are scared to loose money on a flip) but because the market has changed for HG cards. Or low pop cards as well. Why would a dealer let money leave the table just because the dynamic has changed? Not a good business practice. That makes old timers complain. Did it in comics, did it in cards, and I would assume in coins or whatever. But think about the positives:
1-Much more accurate and consistent grading of cards. Protects the buyer from spending NM money on a Mantle that actually grades EX. Let a new collector get burnt once or twice like that and there is a good chance they dont keep collecting
2-Bringing in more collectors to the hobby. That is never a bad thing. The confidence that grading brings to people making purchases is not to be underestimated.
3-Cutting down on altered cards-That card you dropped $500 on? Yeah, sorry, its got color and a trimmed edge. That tobacco card you spent $40. Sorry, its been trimmed. To me that is such a huge positive that it outweighs the negatives. If i buy a card lets say raw, and have it graded and comes back as recolored, i know have recourse. First, I know that it is something that it is not. Then I can go back to the dealer and discuss terms with them. A good dealer will make it right. Without that I either get burned buying it, keeping it in my collection (because i didnt want an altered card) and if Im lucky I get burned again when I go to sell. Because someone else had the hobby experience to recognize what I couldnt.

Some people will say "well dont buy something if you dont know what you are looking for" That really translates into "i got burned when I started and now i know a lot about the hobby, you should have to learn the hard way just like I did" and by the way "got off my damn lawn ya rotten stinkin' kid"

I really enjoy collecting cards and graded cards provides me with the confidence to buy cards I otherwise wouldnt. And if a hobby wants to continue and be relevant, then it needs people coming into the hobby. Grading has done that.

[Misunderestimated]

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

[glchen]

One thing brought up in this thread and others that I find interesting yet debateable is the idea of "freeing a card from its plastic prison." It's another part of the raw vs slabbed debate, yet it's similar to the Toy Story idea where inanimate objects have feelings. I can understand this. There have been more than one instance in the dark of the night where I've been caught talking to my cards as if they're dear friends. And again, it is the owner's prerogative to do whatever he sees fit with his cards, whether it is to put them in an album or a bike spoke or a dart board. I know the feeling of opening a gum pack and touching my cards. You can feel the texture of cards in your hand. It's nice. You can sort and organize how you want. I've handled my pre-war cards also, and it's a different feeling. They are seldom the high grade of modern cards. When you do hold an excellent or near mint pre-war card raw, it's a feeling of awe as you wonder how it could have survived in this condition for so long.

However the phrase "freeing a card from its plastic prison" speaks more of the card's feelings than the owner's. I can see some parts of the argument where I think card owners can believe this. It's an airtight seal in the slab, and the cards cannot breathe. You can easily imagine a live card suffocating inside there. It is an unnatural environment where cards were not meant to be when first issued. Cards were meant to be played with, traded, and enjoyed. Cards may want to be right next to another card, raw to raw, similar to the skin to skin recommendations when caring for newborns.

However, I still don't know if that's what cards really want. It's back to the Toy Story argument where cards are similar to toys, and they want to exist for as long as possible, to be enjoyed their owners as much as possible. And cards may even have a selfish side where they want to exist in their current condition as long as possible. Cards do not want to be thrown away. They don't want to be tossed in the trash accidentally or on purpose. However, if you slab a card, there's much less chance that it will get tossed. Most collectors scoff when a 10 cent card is put into a $5 slab. That is an incredible waste of value, and they are right. However, what do the cards think? Are they proud that they are now in a nice safe slab? If they are in an SGC slab, better to show off their best attributes. If they are in a Beckett slab, this new home is bulletproof! For PSA, they can brag that they're now worth a little more in this slab than the others. I've holdered many a hideous raw card that had no right be slabbed. In a way, I felt like I was saving that card. Now that it was slabbed, it would be appreciated a lot more than when it were raw. It may have writing, holes, horrible creases, but now it had its own shiny slab to show off in. I think it knew it didn't deserve to be there, but it was glad it was. Now there would be more chance people would look at it and enjoy and less than it would be thrown away. For higher grade cards, I think the feeling is the similar. They want to keep their sharp corners, their uncreased surface. They've already survived a hundred odd years like this, and they want another hundred. An inside a slab, they are much more likely to keep their condition.

A card inside a slab can be enjoyed almost as much as a raw one. The only difference being you cannot feel the card. However, it only has two sides, so you can look and enjoy it just as much. I think that slabbing cards and coins would be similar in these respects. However, I do see more of an argument for comics. You can easily say that comics are meant to be read. And that comics want to be read. Inside a slab, you can only see the front and back cover; you can't read it. Therefore, I think there is more of an argument for freeing comics from their slab prison than for cards.

I recently purchased a W519-1 Ruth card with a blue background to go with my maroon and red/pink backgrounds. When the seller sold the card to me, he said he was glad it was going to a good home with my other Ruth's. It was slabbed, but regardless, I think it was happy also to go from one good place where it was appreciated to another, and where it could exchange its own war stories with the other cards.

[sreader3]

Good post Leon. Whenever I have emailed Joe Orlando with a concern about PSA authentication and/or grading, he has responded promptly and cordially. That's not to say that every issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, but at least a considered reply was given.

As for those who complain that Joe Orlando is all about protecting PSA's interests, I don't think that is really a valid criticism. Corporate officers have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of their company and shareholders.

PSA has its problems to be sure. PSA personnel make too many authentication, grading and labeling errors. But the company is hardly the evil empire it is sometimes made out to be, and Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

Yes, and it is a catch-22. However, as the stories and the art are what drives most collectors there are trades, reprints, etc that allow one to read and enjoy the story and art without having to open the case.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.[/QUOTE]

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

[A2000]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

[vargha]

I am not a raw card Luddite. I think TPG has been a huge boon to the hobby. That and the Internet have expanded it exponentially.

I do think Joe Orlando is a lying sack of crap. Hey Joe, I'm still waiting for the full story on WIWAG that you promised once the court action was over. I'm also still waiting for your response to the charge from a former head grader that PSA left two pallets of unsealed slabs in the parking lot at one time because there wasn't sufficient room in the old office at the time.

Bottom-line, Joe Orlando is a self-serving, lying weasel who holds his position because of those "qualities" rather than in spite of them.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave[/QUOTE]
Comics do use mint terms:
VF/NM very fine/near mint 9.0
NM- Near mint minus 9.2
NM-Near Mint 9.4
NM+ Near Mint Plus 9.6
NM/MT 9.8
MT 9.9
CGC at one time used both the number and alpha grade on their slabs. It has only been recently that they have stopped. By recently I mean in the last several years.
And inside the hobby, the alpha and numeric are interchangeable.
And depends on the person and age of the book depends on whether restoration is accepted. But that is a whole can of worms lol

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by A2000

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

Especially books that have amateur work done.